The quickest way out of the Balkans
It doesn’t rank high in the annals of Balkan history, but the apparent Greek suggestion that Macedonia be renamed “Slavo-Albanian Macedonia” is certainly one of the more offensive and revealing maneuvers of recent times. Greeks know that Macedonians don’t like to be characterized as Slavs, even though their language is a Slavic one. It’s a bit like the term “redskins”: offensive despite the veneer of descriptiveness.
The proposal is also calculated to cause trouble between Macedonians and Albanians, the two most populous ethnic groups in the country. Never mind the other minorities the country counts among its citizens, including Turks, Roma, Serbs and Vlachs. They won’t be pleased either. There is a reason the French call a fruit salad une macédoine.
The Greek suggestion is calculated to irritate Skopje, but it ought also to annoy the international community, which has been hoping for two decades that Macedonia and Greece would come to a compromise solution on the “name” issue. Greece has simply confirmed what should have been obvious: there will be no solution based on the free will of Athens and Skopje. Greek Prime Minister Samaras has wanted the collapse of his northern neighbor. Better to increase the chances of that than solve the problem. Conversely, Macedonian Prime Minister Gruevski sees no possibility of a negotiated solution better than the one he already has: the entire world calls Macedonia Macedonia, except for Greece. He is not blameless in the failure to reach a negotiated solution.
No one outside Greece (and Bulgaria, which is not above the occasional troublemaking with a neighbor whose territory it once would have claimed) would give a hoot about this problem, except that it keeps Macedonia out of NATO, where Greece blocks consensus, and it tends to increase frictions between the two largest ethnic groups in Macedonia. The Albanians haven’t generally minded the country being called Macedonia, but they would be more inclined to compromise than the Macedonians. They are also more concerned about NATO membership, which they regard as an important guarantee of their security.
The solution to this part of the problem is simple. Skopje and Athens agreed in 1995 that the country could be called “The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” (aka The FYROM) for purposes of entry into international organizations. That is its name in the UN, for example. But Greece has violated this agreement and been found to have done so in binding ruling by the International Court of Justice. There is no question about who is in the wrong here: it is Athens.
All that is needed to fix the NATO problem is a serious commitment by the United States (or Germany) that The FYROM (along with Montenegro) should become members at the 2014 NATO summit in the United Kingdom. That would only be fitting, as the Macedonian Army has fought in Afghanistan, from which NATO will be drawing down by the end of 2014, and has even guarded NATO headquarters there. Athens may play hard ball with Skopje, but it won’t defy a clear, high-level decision from Washington or Berlin to get The FYROM into NATO in line with the Interim Accord, as the ICJ decision obligates Athens to do.
Such a signal would be an appropriate response to the provocation and Samaras’ long-standing effort to irritate the Macedonians and Albanians. It might even provoke Athens to reach a negotiated settlement, which would be a good thing.
Samaras’ effort to destabilize the Balkans won’t likely succeed, but it could cause unnecessary trouble and expense. The quickest route out of the Balkans for Washington is to get all the former Yugoslav republics into NATO, where Slovenia, Croatia and Albania are already making contributions.
As best I understand the situation, Montenegro and Macedonia have already met the membership requirements. Kosovo, which is now planning for its future security forces, will want to get in as soon as possible. Serbia is not quite ready to apply, but a birdie tells me it won’t be more than a couple of years before it breaks the taboo, especially if Kosovo makes any progress in that direction. Bosnia will likely be laggard in pursuing NATO membership, as in so many other things. Still, we could well see all of the Balkans in NATO before 2020. That would be a very good outcome, a fitting end to the wars that started almost 30 years earlier.
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47 thoughts on “The quickest way out of the Balkans”
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All that needs to be done is put a north or upper in front of Macedonia threatening Athens will not do anything.BEsides there is no proof the Greek side made that recommendation for Slavo Albania republic,the claim was made from a Skopje newspaper.the ICG ruling is non binding and non enforceable.PLease get your facts right and stop posting misinformation.
“Greeks know that Macedonians don’t like to be characterized as Slavs”.
I must admit I didn’t know that Macedonians have a problem with being counted among Slavs. I am curious to learn why? And what they consider themselves to be in terms of ethnogenesis?
I agree Milan it seems they didn’t have a problem for 80 years when they were part of Yugoslavia
It wouldn’t be far from the truth,
Slavic Albania Macedonia,
then Greece should be renamed
Slavic Greek Albania,
Slavic Montenegro Albania,
Kosovo Albania
Albania
And we’re pretty much close
Milan, it’s something else. African-Americans are black, but they don’t like to be called blacks. Term Slav is used in derogatory fashion just to deny the right to term Macedonian. So, we all know that Poles and Serbs are Slavs, but nobody calls them Slavopoles or Slavoserbs. Or, Celtenglish? Or Dacoromans? Or Tatarobulgarians?
Slavomacedonian or Slav Macedonian is used (just google it) in derogatory terms.
Term Macedonian is claimed only by us. Nobody else in the world claims that term. Even Greeks do not officially allow nobody to call himself Macedonian. Check their census data – not a single Macedonian there (they do not allow that name at all). Throughout the world where it is allowed for one to freely claim ethnic identity you will not find a single self-declared Slav Macedonian. Only Macedonian. Check Canada, Australia, USA, EU countries…
Finally, leave history and language behind (Engloirish or Engloamericans would be very bad term even they both speak English…) – we claim the term Macedonian. The name claimed by nobody before. It is probably the only condition for a country to be called Republic of Macedonia – there should be no other country called the same. Greek provinces of West Macedonia, Central Macedonia and East Macedonia and Thrace are different by name from Republic of Macedonia (or simply Macedonia), so there’s no problem.
Therefore – we are Macedonians. Greeks from their Macedonian provinces are GREEKS in every official document. They can call themselves Macedonian Greeks or any other name they chose. But we are only official Macedonians on planet Earth. And using term Slav Macedonians is just an insult to common sense – my every document states that I am Macedonian but I’m denied to use my freedom to self-declare as such.
Kiro
Kiro, thank you for the explanation. It is somewhat different from what I initially understood to be the case. In other words, you do not deny that you are Slavs by basic ethnogenesis (just like other Yugoslavian peoples), but you just don’t want the attribute “Slav(ic)” to be put only before the name of your ethnicity, because it is not put before the names of other Slavic peoples.
Correct. Ethnogenesis can explain how someone came to his identity. BUT, it is not his identity.
Greeks insist that as our language is slavic that we cannot claim Macedonian identity.
We can. If we use their arguments, that means that Americans are Englishmen. And Irish and probably Indians. But ask Americans, Irishmen and Indians about their identity and you’ll get a different answer.
Kiro
Macedonia
“Skopje and Athens agreed in 1995 that the country could be called “The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” (aka The FYROM) for purposes of entry into international organizations. That is its name in the UN, for example”
No, we did not agree to that. We agreed that we will apply under our constitutional name and that Greece will not block us if the multinational organization uses “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”. And we applied everywhere with our constitutional name, including UN. UN, in fact, has no name (only a provisional reference) for us – they used “the country that applied for membership is accepted and will be provisionally referred to as the former… for all uses WITHIN UN”.
Name of my country has nothing to do with the Greek irrational problem – it is my identity as Macedonian. It is the history of Macedonian people. It is what used to Macedonian lands. It is Greek nightmare and we cannot do anything to fix other peoples’ dreams.
BUT, we have the right to chose our name, our identity, our church, the names of our schools, sons, daughters, our songs, our stadiums, airports as ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD.
We are not German Austria in 1919 to be forbidden to chose the name of our country as we were not disciples of Hitler. And even UK agreed to stop calling Ireland with other name than their constitutional name (check Belfast Agreement from 1997) despite fact that IRA was waging a war against UK government for decades.
We need basic human right. To call our country as we wish. And it is high time for Macedonia to stop this charade and ask UN for its sovereign right to a name. Republic of Macedonia. Or simply Macedonia.
Kiro Velkovski
Skopje, Macedonia
The former president of Macedonia, Kiro Glogorov, had to say that to avoid military aggression from Greece and Serbia. Macedonia had to change its name to be able to enter the UN and gain sovereignty so as to avoid aggression from outside.
Can you give me that link, please? Why then Macedonia applied for UN membership as Republic of Macedonia?
Anyway, here’s what our former president said in 1992:
http://liv.ac.uk/library/sca/owen/boda/addrglig.pdf
“Your rights end, where the other fellow’s starts”. We did not cause any instability and I find this article extremely offensive and propagandistic. U.S.’s policy will lead her to the downfall. How can you support a name that is unliteral and fictional, to achieve your goals? This is the case right here. U.S. trying to exploite natural resources of FYROM and ultra-nationalism rising. How are you going to unite people? Hate towards someone else. There are undoubtable historical facts whether Macedonians were Hellines or not. The case is whether FYROM should contain the term MACEDONIA. In my opinion: NO!. Just like you have the right to self identify yourselves the same way I have to do it among Greeks. I am not Athenian,Thracian,Corfian,Cretian,Hipirian etc. I AM MACEDONIAN-period. Since culturally,liguinstically and historically, you have no connection with its history you cannot call yourselves Macedonians. Hellines do so, and they are the ones who are allowed to use this term. Instead use Southern Serbia or any other term you want, besides Macedonia. 1st) It is provocative 2nd) Misleading 3rd)Non-sense. It makes more sense to define your-selves among the Slavs rather than Greeks(which is a unique language spoken by Greeks in Cyprus/Sicilly/Hellas). People of FYROM there is instability in the world and your government’s policy will lead you to a war that you will come out losers. After a financial crisis, we have nationalism rising, and after nationalism rises we have a war. Good luck.
The daily paper said it quoted a Greek diplomat, without specifying who. Greece doesn’t want to have the problem solved. When borders drop Macedonians will be able to visit their relatives in Greece and Bulgaria without any pressures and threats. There are thousands upon thousands Greeks of mixed Macedonian and Greek origin. When people rekindle their relationships this will poseis a serious threat of Greek historiography as mandated by the state.
So they daily paper quoted a Greek diplomat=Greece doesn’t want a solution.There was no formal announcement from anyone about this proposal.
After doing some research Ali Ahmet in a interview today in the Skopje daily says that Greece is proposal is actually the republic of upper Macedonia :
http://history-of-macedonia.com/2013/11/03/ahmeti-ellada-dimokratia-ano-makedonia/
Not the slavi Albanian republic,I wonder who is posting this misinformation in Skopje and for what reason in doing so,create ethnic tensions between the Albanians and Slavs?
There are no Slavs in Macedonia. Please check the census data and you will find no Slavs. Also check censuses in free world countries – Canada, US, Australia, Germany, Sweden, … No single Slav in the world. Only self-declared Macedonians.
And it is an insult to call someone with a name he doesn’t want to be used.
Robin O’Neal who was the first mediator in the negotiations, has also called the Greek proposal “an insult”. I don’t see how a Macedonian daily newspaper can influence the opinion of a diplomat. So it must have been proposed or in some way uttered.
can you provide any links that the name Slavi Albanian Macedonia was proposed?Becuase nothing has come out officially from the UN,Greece,Fyrom or Nimitz for that matter.Only this Daily and Mr.Serwer.
Tirana: the Greek president Papoulias supported the idea of naming Macedonia as “Slav-Albanian Macedonia”.
http://www.shekulli.com.al/web/p.php?id=33908&kat=87
What does that change? Any name proposal insults and denies basic right for self determination. Any name proposal. Except the ones that we chose for our country. And we chose Republic of Macedonia or short Macedonia.
Albanian daily is hardley reliable,im talking about a anouncment from any of the three interested parties.ie Fyrom,UN,Greece.dOES PAPOULIAS say this in the video?
who cares what robin oneil or anyone else including mr.serwer say does anyone have evidence from both the greek and or fyrom foreign ministries or The UN or Nimitz that this proposal was made?skopjian,albanian and for that matter greek dailies dont count for anything.
If we leave aside the essentially pointless argument between Greek and Macedonian nationalists, as well as the equally senseless mutual accusations over alleged territorial designs or the never-ending identity-related wrangles, the real question remains of what concretely has Greece gained – or what does it possibly expect to gain – by blocking Macedonia in its Euroatlantic integration efforts? What can Athens actually achieve by doing so, whether economically, geopolitically, or in whatever sense, except for an occasional (and largely temporary) distraction of ordinary Greeks from truly critical domestic issues? If someone could rationally explain Athens’ position to me, I would appreciate that very much. Thanks!
On the flip side what does fyrom have to lose with not using upper or northern in front of Macedonia
The conditions from Greek side never end. We were asked to change constitution and flag back in 1992. And we did it.
1. The flag we are not allowed to use is NOT in official use in Greece. It never was. But they asked us to change the flag.
2. The changes in our constitution were about protection of Macedonian minorities in other countries. We removed that from our constitution, BUT, Greek constitution still has the protection of Greek minorities in it. For almost 200 years.
We never called ourselves Northmacedonians. Or Uppermacedonians. We never will.
Maybe Greece could group their provinces in one and change the name to Greece and South/Lower Macedonia? No harm in it.
The Republic of Macedonia stands to lose everything. And I am not simplifying. On the other hand, the region stands to gain ideological and moral progress after Macedonians are allowed to celebrate their culture and identity. Macedonians have been part of Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and Albanian societies after years of intermarriage. Bulgaria and Greece are working overtime to sully all things Macedonian, to make it unpopular for anyone to identify as Macedonian or part Macedonian. Connect the dots and you will see that the southern Balkan can make a quantum leap when Macedonians are recognized as a people.
Republic of Macedonia was conceived on August 2nd, 1944. Until then we had no state. And we survived.
But, we will not lose this chance to have our own sovereign state. Don’t take my word, there’s no chance that our name will be changed on a referendum under Greek pressure… You’ll see.
Anyway, if the name is changed, do you expect that the people will call themselves with other name than Macedonians? How will Greeks succeed in it? They will forbid people to declare as such in OUR census? Where’s the end? Should we change our songs too? “Macedonian girl” will become “Uppermacedonian girl”? RIDICULOUS!
Finally, our biggest national hero Goce Delcev (and countless others) was born and died in what’s today Greek Macedonia. Should we erase him from our history?
This artificial problem has no rational solution except going to court and settling it there.
mr Serwer what exactly is your agenda?
http://www.dnevnik.mk/default.asp?ItemID=4F741E1F1F1CA74BBEC4E68F7C4394CB
It seems the only people using this term of Slavo Albania republic is yourself and this daily dnevnik.
One suggestion how to fix things between our two countries:
http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/macedonia-and-greece-what-is-the-basis-for-a-reconciliation/
Mr serwer can you please tell us your source for the Slavic republic of Macedonia because all I’m finding is Greece agreeing to republic of upper Macedonia
I am not at liberty to name my source, but it is a good one. The intent in raising this provocative option is not clear. It certainly was not to settle the matter amicably. You would like a Greek government source for the proposal; I’d like to hear a Greek government denial.
The only thing that I found is Greek Govt. denying tthe proposed but it’s all in Greek dailies nothing on the official website of the ministry of foreign affairs.so nothing official to confirm or deny such a proposal.
Dear Milan,
Mr. Serwer has it quite right in this article. This is not about having problem “being counted among Slavs”. This is about Macedonians having a problem being designated by the Greeks as “Slavs”, as Greece’s intent has always been to provoke their neighbor by introducing the use of this term in a pejorative fashion and as a tool to depict Macedonian ethnic and national consciousnesses as rather primitive and inferior compared to neighboring Slavic nations. It’s like designating today’s Serbs or the Bulgarians as just plain “Slavs”. Aside from the fact that they believe they are Slavic nations, I bet you might find that Serbs and Bulgarians will not like the idea of being more Slavic than Serbian or Bulgarian and will definitely have a problem just as Macedonian have!
Plus, did anyone ever presented solid evidence of ethnogenesis?…Where is it? What is it?! Who ever scientifically proved Macedonians and even Bulgarians and Serbs are Slavs?
Another fact you might find interesting is that in today’s Greek society, Macedonians living in the Republic of Macedonia are almost exclusively labeled as Skopians and not less often as Gyfto-Skopiani (Gipsy-Skopians). To them modern day Macedonians are third class world citizens. Just below the Gypsies. To back my statement up, it would be sufficient to listen to the tape when Golden Dawn darling Ilias Kasidiaris slaps Liana Kanelli of the Communist Party of Greece. The last seconds of the debate end up with the word Skopianos, which is meant to insult the other party. Check this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nte1UtRww_k (The word Skopianos is used by Kasidiaris at 0:56-0:57 right after he slaps Ms. Kanelli in the face).
And this is how and when it all began. Below is a link with an excerpt from TV Belgrade evening news (in Serbian) from November 29, 1991. Between 0:05 and 0:20 Main players include Slobodan Milosevic, Konstantinos Mitsotakis (Prime Minister of Greece) and Dora Bakoyannis (his daughter, later Minister of Foreign Affairs during the NATO Bucharest summit, later kicked-out by currrent Prime Minister of Greece Samaras).
The main goal of the visit apparently is to check out the possibility for Macedonia to be included in the hell scenarios of Milosevic’s “Greater Serbia” agenda. Timing: Right in the eve of publishing of the Badinter Commission in charge of determining eligibility for recognition of the newly independent ex-Yugoslav republics. Follow up outcome: To the dismay of Greeks, Badinter commission concludes that at the time only Slovenia and Macedonia are eligible for recognition. Other follow up outcome: Greek desire for trouble in Macedonia continues to date!
THanks for the history lesson/conspiracy theories,getting back to the point the Greek Govt.Has clearly stated that the are looking for a geographic qualifier either north/upper for the use in front of the name.As we can see from ALi Ahmet that the proposal that he knows about is the republic of upper macedonia.everything else is noise.
Interesting dialogue going on here! Congrats!
For the sake of objectiveness, and the future that this country deserves, let’s reinstate some facts on the main issues exposed in this forum:
– there is no confirmation of a “Slavic Albanian Macedonian” name proposal from Greece. This is probably another provocation created by the Gruevski controlled media in the country, in order to further alarm the local multiethnic population. If anyone is looking for an official Greek denial you can consult the country’s news agency MIA (Mia.mk). In today’s edition, Greece’s ambassador has publicly denied the existence of such a name proposal
– as to the ethnogenesis issues and the identity mentioned here, facts are simple:
a) historically there is no other Macedonian people, language and culture apart from the one originated in Macedonia in Greece. Macedonians have been since antiquity part of the Hellenic culture, like Aetolians, Athenians, Thessalians, etc. The name Macedonia, and all its derivations has and is being used until our times, to identify everything coming from the omonymous greek northern territories, since the times of Philip, and even before him. Let us not forget that since antiquity and until today Macedonians spoke the same greek language as the other greek tribes (with different dialects of course), worshipped and still do the same god(s), participated in, and still do, everything Greek, from traditions to culture and national greek consciousness. Not to mention that Alexander the Great, spread this, his Hellenic civilization and language, to the confines of the known Earth, as a true patriotic Macedonian, i.e. Greek . These are all facts provided to us by the modern world science of history, and there are no indications of the contrary ***At this point I’m sure that some readers from this country will react to all these facts, but in order to be fair, if they do it, I would kindly ask of them to use historical references from major western historians, and not the distorted version of facts they are being taught at schools by the Gruevski propaganda
b) having stated the above, it becomes clear why the name “Macedonia”, and all its derivatives, cannot be used by this new nation. It has constituted part of the cultural and linguistic heritage and national consciousness of the Greeks for the past three millennia, and long before this new nation decided to “opt” for it. This information is also easily retrieved from world history books concerning ancient, medieval and modern Greek history. At this point it must be clear that any allegations about Greeks not using the name of Macedonia, or it’s symbols, history and mythology is utterly a lie. Since the independence of the Greeks and the instauration of the Modern Hellenic State, Macedonians in Northern Greece and elsewhere in the country and abroad, identify proudly with their origins, not to mention with their ancestors (from Philip and Alexander, to the Macedonian dynasty of Emperors when Greece was the Byzantine Empire, and the Macedonians that fought in the liberation and Balkan wars, such as Pavlos Melas). Being a Macedonian, has been in the past millenia in Greece, a proud regional sentiment similar to that of being an Athenian, a Pelloponesian or an Epirote (all Greek regions, like Macedonia). For “non-believers” of these arguments, concerning the continuity of the usage of the Macedonian identity in Greece, the Internet provides a great deal of sources concerning companies, institutions, associations and media bearing the Macedonian adjective for decades, if not centuries before the creation of the Yugoslav republic (e.g. Makedonia newspaper, MEVGAL dairy industry, etc.)
c) the population and culture of this State have of course the right of self-determination, as any other nation in the world, and according to international law. But one thing that International Law clearly states is that the right of self determination of one nation cannot undermine the right of another nation to do so, and its identity. And by using the name Macedonia, already used for millenia by the Greek culture and people as its own, this former Yugoslav republic would de undermining the right of self-determination of the Greeks. This simple fact and truth is systematically being omitted from the population of this country, resulting in “misinformation” and fanatism, through which the idea that “only their right of self-determination is to be safeguarded”, prevails. This situation, aggravated by a false ethnogenesis, product of the communist Yugoslav regime, and the Gruevski administration, has resulted in the creation of an unclear and sometimes confused national identity, that creates fanatism in the local population and strong reactions in neighboring countries
d) so finally we arrive to the “Macedonian” ethnogenesis question. The citizens of this former Yugoslav republic, are victims of a geostrategical plan to destabilize the region since the times of the communist dictator Tito. To set things straight in a simple and orderly way, let me mention some bullet points:
– language: the “Macedonian or Slav-Macedonian” language is a language only “recognized” linguistically in the 70s, and clearly belonging to the Slavic family of languages. In practical terms, the language is considered a very close relative of Bulgarian. Even if many here will argue that this is not so, I dare anyone who speaks the truth to state whether they need a translator to understand, or talk to a Bulgarian neighbor. The answer is simply: no. And this linguistic issue is closely related to the ethnogenesis matter of this nation
– Slavic identity : how strange is it for a people whose language, customs, names, and traditions are Slavic, to define themselves as something different! And here is the proof of the absurd crime committed by the political elite of this country against its citizens (excluding the Albanians): the renouncing of their “natural cultural” Slavic family, in the name of a supposed ancient origin (i.e. Macedonian) with which the modern inhabitants of the country share nothing, from language and customs, to territory and ethnic origins (them being Slavs, and Macedonians having being Greeks since their appearance). How can this denial of their true heritage be explained in conjunction with the linguistic issue and ethnogenesis? The starting point is Tito
– the dictator was a geostrategical visionary. In the united Yugoslavia (which actually means South Slavs Country), Serbia had a strong presence partially due to its relatively large territory. Additionally its southern territory known as Vardarska (see maps before 1945), was considered to be unstable, and in danger of being highly influenced by Bulgaria, due to the fact that a great majority of its citizens sympathized with, also communist, Bulgaria, due to common linguistic and cultural ties. This “Vardarska” region is today’s Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. At the same time, Yugoslavia lacked a seaport in the strategical Aegean Sea, controlled by “capitalist” Greece. So, as said before the visionary (strictly on this issue) Tito designed a plan that would provide him with a single solution to all his problems: the founding and creation of a Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and of its nation and history of course! With this new nation, fears of Bulgarian expansionism would cease, since a new identity for the inhabitants of this republic would make them “feel less Bulgarian”. From that moment on, this people would have a glorious past constructed upon a Greek tribe whose king, Alexander, changed the world, and this same past would also provide them with a right over the “historical” Greek Macedonian territories thus giving the future possibility of Yugoslavia annexing Greek territory and gaining the desired “exit to the Aegean”. Last but not least, by giving birth to this new nation, Serbian territory was decreased and consequently so was its influence within Yugoslavia . Something that pleased in a particular way the, Croatian, Yugoslav dictator. At this point it must be noted that Tito also managed for the idea of an “independent Communist Macedonia” to be formally supported by the USSR and communist parties in Eastern Europe (understandable taking into account that we are talking about the Cold War period, and that Greece from whom they claimed the territory, belonged to the “other side”)
– more then 60 years after, the true victims of this master plan, are the Slavs populating this part of the world. And why are they victims one would argue? Well, for the simple reason that through years of constructed propaganda and a false history, first by the communist regime, and then by the subsequent administrations of the independent republic, they were denied of their glorious Slavic past and their contributions to the Slavic heritage worldwide, and they were educated to believe in an identity full of contradictions that can be deconstructed by any citizen of this world that has had high-school education, not to mention, historians
– but how was this done then? Or better said what were these citizens made to believe? The answer is simple: although having a Slavic language that only appeared in the area 10 centuries after the ancient Macedonians who spoke Greek,as all literary works and monuments from antiquity indicate, these people were made to believe they are their rightful descendants. Alexander was their forefather, and since him, everything mentioned in history as Macedonian, belonged to their heritage. It didn’t matter that they only shared a tiny part of the ancient geographical Macedonia (only about one fifth of the current Republic is within Ancient Macedonian boundaries), it didn’t matter that Alexander proudly stated he was a descendant of Hercules from his father’s side and of Achilles from his mother’s side (both Greek), it didn’t matter that they never adored the 12 Gods as their ancestors because they did not exist at that time, it did not matter that they are not able to read the inscriptions on the Ancient Macedonian monuments since these are in Greek, nor that their mothers and sisters are not called Olympias or Cleopatra, two Macedonian names (still used today in Macedonia, Greece), or that their “national Macedonian consciousness” does not appear on the literary world heritage until the 50s (yes of the 20th century CE), that the Byzantine emperors of the Macedonian dynasty defined themselves as Hellenes and spoke Greek, nor did it matter that the graves of all their “Macedonian heroes” lie in other countries, namely Greece and Bulgaria. Yes, in Bulgaria too. From the medieval Bulgarian Tsar Samuel to Bulgarian heroes that fought against the Ottoman Empire, all were made part of this new and glorious “Macedonian” past. Because you see, the linguistic and cultural connections with Bulgaria also had to be somehow “connected” to this nation. Nothing mattered. Instead this nation was educated in the past 4 to 5 decades with this new “history”, not accepted or endorsed by the international community of historians (check any book on world history not written in this Republic), and it’s capital Skopje has seen in the past 5 years the appearance of “21st century made” Ancient Greek statues and arches, made in true Las Vegas-style, depicting Aristotle, Philip, Alexander, and the Saints Cyril and Methodius (from Thessaloniki in Macedonia, Greece – creators of the Slavic alphabet and christianizers of the Slavs). Not to forget Tsar Samuel’s statue and those of other Bulgarian historical figures, as well as the renaming of the capital’s airport and sports halls with Ancient Greek (Macedonian) names..and the list goes on.
– the cherry on the top: and of course in order to establish the historical fair claims of this nation, another two important elements had to be introduced in this new “Macedonian psyche”. First, discredit those that claim that are Macedonians and heirs of this past. Current Slavic inhabitants of the Republic are fanatically “anti-Greek”. The burning of the Greek flag in government sponsored cultural events has been repeatedly seen the past couple of decades, and this is just an example of the “sentiment” being nurtured in the citizens by this country’s governments. Actually all the basis of the external propaganda carried out by the country’s media and organizations (also in the diaspora) consists in trying to “prove” to the world that: a) either ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, or b) that modern Greeks are not descendants of the ancient ones (using supposed racial indications). Now, let us think, how valid is your argument, when the only thing you do is to try and discredit the opponent, without having any other type of facts to expose? Then again, and realistically, if one has no facts (historical, for example) upon which to base his/her position, the only remaining defense line is to try and attack your opponent, even with the most outrageous statements.
The second element needed to “validate” the claims of this new nation, and the connection to the ancient Macedonia, whose 2/3s lies in Greece, was the creation of a “Macedonian minority” in Macedonia in Greece. This was easily done by the communist regime, and is still promoted by the current government. After the Second World War, Greece lived through a harsh civil war. When the civil war was coming to an end, and the communists had clearly lost it, some thousands of Greek communists that lived in villages neighboring the then Yugoslavian territory, and were sympathetic to the idea launched by Tito, of an independent Communist Macedonia, crossed the border and installed themselves in the country as political refugees. It is the children of these political refugees that were Macedonians, i.e. Greek, and who grew up in the communist Yugoslav republic of Macedonia that the current regime in this country is presenting as the proof of a “Macedonian minority” driven away from their forefathers’ land. And of course, these people grew up in their new home, having heard the stories of a “free communist Macedonia” from their parents, speaking the Slavic “Macedonian” language and believing to belong to this new “Macedonian nation” (this last made easier by the fact that their parents were Macedonian-Greek, and that their old villages still lie in Macedonia-Greece).
I understand that the issues here exposed are multiple, and probably one could be writing for hours, in order to really comprehend this complex ethnic, political and historical matter.
What remains clear to me, is that the people of this former Yugoslav Republic, are the victims of this extreme Balkan political game.
They are being deprived of their true past, which if explored will for sure provide humanity with new cultural elements and figures , and they are being forced into a permanent state of isolation and conflict with their neighbors.
The inhabitants of the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia, should be given a true chance to construct their future, by first exploring their past. In antiquity their region was called Paionia, and they have a proud Slavic past contributing to both Bulgarian and Serbian cultures. Not to mention the contributions of the other ethnic components of this nation, namely Albanians, Turks and Roma.
The conflict with Greece and Bulgaria, and the persistence on an imaginary past that accentuates this conflict, will only be in detriment of the citizens of the country. A people, a nation, that does not know its past, and that does not acknowledge its present, cannot build a future.
I truly hope my comment is published.
Facts are not that simple, Mr Diamante.
Your long text is full of little inaccuracies that form one big misleading statement.
One possible of many similar examples:
“the Macedonians that fought in the liberation and Balkan wars, such as Pavlos Melas”
Pavlos Melas was not a Macedonian, in any sense of the word. He was born in Marseille and lived all his (short) life in Athens.
What he fought for cannot in any reasonable sense of the term be called “liberation”. He fought for the annexation of the Ottoman territories of Macedonia to the Greek Kingdom of the time.
Generally speaking, the name “Macedonia” has NOT constituted “part of the cultural and linguistic heritage and national consciousness of the Greeks for the past three millennia”. Actually, the name “Greeks” (Έλληνες) itself was NOT in use for the most part of these three millennia, except in the sense “a pagan, non Christian”. It was only resuscitated and used again towards the end of the 18th-beginning of the 19th century.
The name “Macedonian” was never used as an indicator of ethnic/ cultural belonging.
Dear Mr. Gavriilidis,
First of all, I’m happy to see that these are the only points contained in my post, with which you disagree.
Indeed Pavlos Melas is of North Epirote ancestry, but as you are probably well aware his contribution to the Macedonian liberation war, especially against Bulgarians, transformed him in a symbol of this struggle, thus gaining a deserving place in the Macedonian popular psyche and pantheon of Macedonian heroes.
To keep facts 100% accurate though! I will gladly present my apologies for this imprecision of mine. I will refrain though from making any comment on him being born in Marseille, since he could have been born in Shanghai for all that matters, and he would still be Greek.
As to your characterization of the Macedonian liberation war as an “annexation” one, I will just say I disagree, since this clearly represents your personal view and not a historically based one, serving well your personal agenda, whichever this may be.
Strangely enough your argument on the historical usage of Greek or Hellenes, follows the same “school of thought”, as your comment on the “Macedonian annexation war”, and is the one impulsed by the “historians” of the former Yugoslav republic. Perhaps it is just a coincidence. That, and your, apparently, greek name.
In any case, and just for reason’s sake, let me ask you whether you also deny the historical continuity of Danes, because their ancestors used the different name of Viking tribes, or that of Italians, because their ancestors called themselves Romans, or that of Spaniards divided in the past in different kingdoms with various names? In fact Europe is full of such examples.
Since I do not believe you would deny most modern European nations their historical continuity due to variations in the name they used to define themselves through the ages, the only other plausible explanation of your statement is that you deliberately choose not to apply it to Greeks, again to serve your agenda.
And this is not an example of objectiveness Sir.
Greeks have called themselves through the eons of their existence many names (Hellenes, Graikoi, Romioi…), but the truth of the matter is that these names all made reference to one ethnic and cultural affiliation. That of Hellenism. To state the contrary would imply that all of Western Europe (at least) was just “resuscitated” from nothing some 300 years ago, and its peoples are not the heirs of the culture left by their forefathers. But perhaps this “theory” serves well the idea of the sudden “ethnogenesis” of the former Yugoslav republic, some 60 years ago. Of course I’m always open to be presented with historical references indicating the contrary of what I state (but let’s agree to use western historians, if you agree).
Finally your note on the “Macedonian” adjective, directly and surprisingly erases some thousands of years of history (from antiquity to middle-ages at least). Macedonian always made reference to culturally belonging to a Greek ethnos/tribe. Again if this is not true, and I’m mistaken, please present references and sources.
Finally I would like to thank you for your post since your observations, aimed clearly at disqualifying Greece’s continuity throughout the ages and any claims on Macedonia, only confirm the point I made in my original post on the former Yugoslav republic, and I quote:
“all the basis of the external propaganda carried out by the country’s media and organizations (also in the diaspora) consists in trying to “prove” to the world that: a) either ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, or b) that modern Greeks are not descendants of the ancient ones ”
I think by now, we all see your agenda Sir.
In ten years living in Italy, I met one Italian who claimed to be descended from the ancient Romans. Italians know that their modern language is not Latin, that their ancestors are a mixture of Romans with many different invaders, and that their culture and way of life are (fortunately) not much like ancient Rome at all, even if its art, architecture, engineering and law are still a source of great pride. They also know that Rome spread its culture far and wide, so that its artifacts appear from Hadrian’s wall to the street called straight.
Rome in the sixth century was reduced to no more than 50,000 inhabitants, as opposed to the one million or so who lived in the ancient city (and the 2.7 million who live there now). How could modern Italians possibly claim to be the descendants of ancient Romans? How could they possibly assert that Spaniards, French, Syrians, Egyptians and many others have nothing to do with the legacy of Rome?
Athens in 1824 had 9040 inhabitants.
He’s as Greek as you are
Same could be said about the bosniaks mrs Serwer?are they this new race or Islamization of Serbs
Why would I care?
Amazing rhetoric here, Mr. Serwer!
Probably your Italian sources are different then mine.
And since we are talking about “official differences” between two states when referred to the issue concerning Greece and FYROM, I would like for you to take a look at the official positions of most, if not all western states as to their historical continuity.
The question here is not whether you, and those supporting the same agenda believe that Italians are the heirs of the Roman, or Venician culture. Although I would love to hear the opinion of the Italian state and it’s citizens on your affirmation that the “Italians could not possibly claim to be descendants of ancient Romans”.The question here Sir, is what these people believe and how it is expressed by the official state policy and history of each country.
And Mr. Serwer, no one denies that the Hellenic culture spread, through Alexander and Rome, to the confines of the then known earth!
And so did the Roman civilization.
But I have never read, heard or known of French, German, or Spaniards (being that institutions, people or governments) claiming to be “descendants” or heirs of Rome.
This privilege is only awarded to Italians, their country and culture, and the rest referers to Romans, as “the conquerors”.
And again, is this a forum to prove the Greekness of Greece? I think not. The world community of historians has thankfully already done so.
Our question here, and let us not forget, is what is the right of the former Yugoslav republic to use the name “Macedonia”. Here lies the burden of proof and not on the Greekness of Greece and it’s historical continuity.
Fantastic text from a Greek author explaining the issue at hand. Now we only have to go to UN and ask our name back…
Name trouble: the “so-called people” and the communism of language
Kiro
Macedonia
P.S. Sick and tired of other people telling me how to call myself.
He’s as Greek as you are.
I would certainly deny non “most”, but ALL modern European -or any other continent’s- nations their historical continuity.
There is no such thing as the “historical continuity of a nation”. No actual nation uses this term. Nations are a product of, precisely, modern European political thought and practice. No nations -with the current sense of the term- existed before the 18th century. Danes are by no means a “national continuity” of the Vikings. And so forth for the rest of them.
Macedonian never “made reference to culturally belonging to a Greek ethnos/tribe”. Actually, nobody claimed “belonging to a Greek ethnos/tribe” between about 300 and 1800 AD.
It is not up to me to “present references and sources”. The burden of proof lies with those who claim that something did happen, not with those who deny it. So it is you who should present a reference from, say, 1500 AD showing that a certain population conceived of themselves as “belonging to a Greek ethnos/tribe” and that they included the capacity of being “Macedonian” in this belonging. There aren’t any, believe me.
Mr. Gavriilidis, again your speech is consumed in Greeks proving their “Greekness”, and historical continuity. And this is not our issue, as I have also commented to Mr. Serwer, with whom you clearly share “school of thought”, and agenda.
The burden of proof lies, believe me, on your side, since you represent interests that directly question Greece’s identity and historical, cultural continuity, as a means to legitimate the “Macedonian” character of the former Yugoslav republic.
But I’ll play your “game” for a while, although please do not start disqualifying historical evidence presented here unless you can present sources. Oh, and these facts are not up for discussion, since Greece is not our topic.
Let”s see the greek historical continuity then:
– east Roman Empire (Byzantine): Greek is adopted as official language as of the 7th century CE, reflecting the Greek character of the empire. It was in effect emperor Heraclius who re-established Greek in 629, and he adopted the title of Basileus (in Greek)
– according to historical sources/census about 8 million of the inhabitants of the empire spoke Greek as a mother tongue, and the number of which communicated in Greek was far higher (the empire being multicultural as you probably know)
– Greek cursive alphabet appears on 9th century
– Greek literary works from the period you mention: John Malalas’s Chronography from the 6th century, the Chronicle of Theophanes the Confessor (9th century), the works of Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (mid-10th century), and The Digenes Akritas, a collection of heroic sagas from the 12th century that was later collated in a verse epic (all written in Greek of course)
– Emperor Basil I (867 CE) named the Macedonian, because he came form the Macedonian theme, and all the subsequent emperors of the Macedonian dynasty, including Constantine VII, the Porphyrogenetus, speaking Greek, and bearing Greek names (I see Macedonian as an adjective appearing again by Emperors of Greek culture Mr. Gavriilidis! And you thought they did not exist…)
– the Komnenoi dynasty, also Greek in language and culture
– the consequent Palaiologoi dynasty, identifying themselves as Greeks – The last emperor Constantine given the title “Basileus Hellenon” (King of Hellenes) in 1449
– the Greekness of all patriarchates of the orthodox faith in the Middle East until today (and in the era you mention)
– should we also mention Dominikos Theotokopoulos (el Greco), a Greek painter (1541 CE)?
– the Pontic tribe, that until today speaks a Greek dialect considered to be the nearest surviving one to the Ancient Greek dialects. If these Greeks had stopped to exist in the era you mention (according to your historical “non continuity” ), the language would not be spoken by their descendants today, right?
I wonder Sir, all this “Greekness” through the ages, and the era you mention is a product of world fiction? Or was it again “resuscitated”, as you like to refer to the Greek culture? If so, don’t you find it amazing that every couple of centuries “some people” decide to “resuscitate” the Greek culture and language?
And the list does not stop here Mr. Gavriilidis. But I will, since it is not my job to historically educate anyone. Your nearest public library can help you on that.
Admittedly though in a few lines, your theory of historical non-continuity of the Greeks, and Europeans in general is easily dismantled Sir. Or are you going to deny the historical references made? By the way, if you need the sources for this information, I can gladly send it to you (the post is already becoming too long). Not to mention that the same exercise done here can also be done with the Spanish, Italian, German, etc. cultures, even though they may have used different names to identify themselves in more distant eras.
Since I have “played” your game, Mr. Gavriilidis, why don’t you present us with proofs of this “Macedonian” national consciousness of this Slavic people before Second World War? And I’m making it easier for you, since I’m not even attempting to ask for such proof from the same period you requested. So:
– where is the Slavic “ethnic Macedonian” literary contribution to world culture before the 50s?
– where are the signs of a distinctive “Macedonian” thought is the world, in the modern ages before WW II?
– how many institutions, publications, books, used ever the name “Macedonian” before WW II , to make reference to this Slavic culture? Or its “Macedonian” language?
– where are the graves of all the heroes of this people? Or haven’t they fought in any World, European or Balkan wars?
– where are the Emperors, artists, writers that expressed themselves as “Macedonians” and used the Slavic language of this people to do so? (And I’m not referring to Bulgarian speaking people)
– where are the population census of past centuries of these “Macedonians” made by western sources? You know, we do have this same information on Greeks and other Europeans, even during the Middle Ages.
And this is our question here Sir.
Where was this “cultural” and “national” identity of “Macedonians” before Tito? This is a rhetoric question as you understand, since we all know the answer…
Because let us not hide behind just the name issue. This is an identity issue. Otherwise the administration of this former Yugoslav republic would not be constructing a “Disneyland” style themed park in Skopje, with Ancient Greek statues and Bulgarian heroes.
Greece or Bulgaria, are not claiming any “part” on the Slavic culture or history of this nation.
It is this nation that questions the identity and civilizations of these two countries by putting their national heroes on their cities’ squares and sports halls, and using their past as they please. Therefor since the former Yugoslav republic is questioning the established and official history of the Western World, it, and all of you that support this stance, should present us with proofs that convince the rest of the world of the legitimacy of these claims.
As to your statement on the “non-existence” of such a thing as historical continuity in probably any western country, I would also like to see what these nations and governments have to say on it. Although any historical source and government web page would provide us with an answer.
It’s very easy to state absurdities that are of a personal opinion, and unfounded historically, and make them sound as “absolute truths” Mr. Gavriilidis. And that is exactly what you Sir, and your friends do.
By the way , please pay a visit when you get the chance to the National Archaeological museum in Copenhagen (Denmark), and then we can talk again about whether Danes consider themselves or not, a historical continuity of the Vikings. Actually among other things you will be surprised to find out, that the “historical timeline” of the Danish nation, starting of course form ancient times and the Vikings, is presented inside the museum in question, side by side with the Greek one, as a means of “situating” in time its evolution. Are you also willing to discredit the Danes? Are they being “fanatic nationalists” basing their historical continuity on invented fables?
As I said before, it is very easy to just state personal opinions as if they were absolute truths.
I guess “the bigger the lie, the more truthful it sounds, right”? And it serves your “Macedonian ethnogenesis” agenda right!
Whose people are you going to deny the historical continuity next Mr. Gavriilidis, in order to pursue your agenda together with Mr. Serwer? The Jewish people perhaps? Just in case you are tempted to do so, I would advise you to also send your opinions directly to the WJC. The Council will love them.
The Haemus [Greek] peninsula is home to >230 known, ancient-Greek groups, tribes and kingdoms. All of them Centum Greek-speakers affiliating to Hellenism, the culture and religious beliefs of the Greeks. All of them universally self-determined Hellene, the collective self-ascription all Greeks Identified by.
example:
A Macedonian greeting a Corinthian introduces himself like Greek from Macedonia, but to a foreigner stranger, introduces himself by universal term – Hellene.
Macedonian-Identity is Hellenic from since the days of King Kranus 778-808 BC. It was cast in the Hellenic mould >3 Millenniums ago. FYRoM cannot use Macedonian Name for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity on that basis.
The Macedonian Name belongs in Greek domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage…two simple historical reference-points no credible diplomat, politician or academic would argue against, willingly!
Greeks ask that FYRoM distinguish itself from Macedon, the ancient-Greek Kingdom. Greeks also ask that Yugoslavs differentiate themselves from Macedonians – the Northern-Greek cultural-inheritors of Macedonian legacy-endowments.