“Macedonia” is not exclusively Greek

Posted in Uncategorized - April 2, 2014 - 115 Comments

Let me first grant to my critics that ancient Macedonia before the conquests of Alexander the Great was mostly in what is today the Hellenic Republic.  I have no doubt about that.  Never have.  But that in no way gives modern Greece exclusive rights to the term “Macedonia.”  Let me illustrate:

  1. The modern country that borders Greece to the north fancies itself the Republic of Macedonia.  There was no Republic of Macedonia in ancient Greece and no serious possibility of confusion with ancient Macedonia by the use of that term.
  2. According to the US Geological Survey, there are eight “locales” in the United States with “Macedonia,” in their names and 1519 other places (many churches, most not of the orthodox variety).
  3. There are 28 locales named Athens in the US, three of them towns.  Anyone in Greece objecting?
  4. In France, a macedoine is a fruit salad.  Want to make an issue of that?
  5. The United States calls one of its 50 states “New Mexico.”  Mexico’s official name is Estados Mexicanos Unidos.  There is a lot more history of irredentist claims across the Mexican/American border than across the Macedonia/Greece border.  I don’t know anyone who has bothered worrying about the names though, except that some Mexicans would like to get rid of the Estados Unidos part in their own official name.
  6. For those concerned about identity theft:  citizens of the United States call themselves “Americans.”  So do citizens of all the other countries of the Western Hemisphere.  I’ve never heard a citizen of the US claim exclusivity, though I have heard citizens of other countries object to the US usage.
  7. Macedonia under Alexander expanded into the territory of ancient Paeonia. That’s one of the many reasons he is termed the Great.  Aren’t those who want to limit the term to modern Greece depriving their hero of some of his glory?  How about the Egyptian city of Alexandria:  is that offensive?
  8. For those who find the recent architectural innovations in Skopje offensive, please visit Washington DC, which was built as the “New Rome” and mercilessly plundered late-18th century understanding of Greek and Roman architecture. There is even an imitation of the coffered dome of Rome’s ancient Pantheon in the entrance hall of the National Gallery of Art, built however in the 20th century.
  9. Those who argue that Skopje should be satisfied with a name like “Republic of Upper Macedonia” need to explain why then Greece is vetoing membership in NATO, which would occur under the country’s UN-accepted name “The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.”  The latter, which Greece has rightly accepted under the Interim Accord for many other purposes, is no less distant from the supposedly offensive “Macedonia” or “Republic of Macedonia.”  It has three or four “modifiers,” depending on how you count.
  10. The only excuse for making an issue of Macedonia’s name is if it were to lay claim to Greek territory. Amendment 1 of the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia reads:   “The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state.”

One of my antagonists on Twitter called me a clown for claiming Greece does not have an exclusive right to the term “Macedonia.”  But he wasn’t laughing.  I laughed at him.  Who’s the clown?

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115 thoughts on ““Macedonia” is not exclusively Greek”

  1. This is a problem with countries that have a more glorious past than present, or hope for the future. The resentissement of the less-than-glorious descendants of former empires can play out in the present as striving to recover their place in the world that was unjustly taken from them by history. So – Arab radicals look back to a time when Europe was sunk in the darkness of the Middle Ages and the Arabs were the inheritors of the learning of Greece and dream of reestablishing the rightful order of things by imposing a worldwide caliphate, Serbia – with its brief “empire” in the Balkans – has never formally given up on Garašanin’s call to restore its place in the world as a great country, China’s nationalists are growing ever more impatient at the slow, quiet approach to restoring the country’s place in Asia (earned by their foreign conquerors), and Putin is apparently serious about restoring Russia to the head of a vast empire. “The past isn’t dead. It isn’t even past” Faulker said about the American South. It seems to apply to most countries that feel themselves to have been defeated.

    Caesar dealt with the problem of future resentment by killing the males of defeated tribes who broke their pledges to live in peace and then selling the women and children into slavery. Effective, but hardly something we want to see employed in the modern world. Germany and Japan were able to reconfigure themselves after WWII, but this is beginning to seem more the exception than the rule in national behavior. Twelve-step programs are falling out of favor as a technique for dealing with dependence on various types of addiction, or we might try developing a means of handling prickly nations addicted to daydreams of former grandeur and what they’re owed by the world today.

    Denmark, by the way, was once a larger country, with foreign possessions and a formidable navy. Today it is is in most polls the “happiest country in the world,” for which history is merely history. They may have something to teach the rest of us.

    1. Rest assured the people of Denmark would be extremely hostile towards a neighbouring state if they encouraged irredentism against their country and literally attempted to usurp their very identity. They would also be extremely hostile to patronizing slime balls that evasively pretended not to notice. All countries would be hostile towards such behaviour.

      The very fact FYROM’s apologists evasively try to whitewash the obvious propaganda and irredentism immediately killed any moral and intellectual credibility they have on the issue. If they can’t truthfully report on events in their own time, they certainly are untrustworthy for any other era. Those that reference FYROM as “Macedonian” are essentially bigots trying to cover up their mistake of recognizing them.

      Because so many Greek hating knuckleheads supported them (including our alleged allies of the US — who once gave us the weapons to expel communists from Greece promoting this exact gibberish), Greeks have been hung out to dry by even alleged “human right” activists and media. Everyone seems to be far far more concerned with their image of moral infallibility rather than the human rights they always claim to represent. (which is why so few Greeks are trusting of foreigners these days)

      Those that claim a country can call itself whatever it wants are either imbeciles or liars. Names are a source of identity and potential territorial claims. Recognition of countries is a serious matter that can cause wars and political instability. Take the example of Palestinian and Taiwanese states. The former Yugoslavians go on an on about their absolute right to recognition — then hypocritically quietly support China and Israel in non-recognition (because they see it in their interests)

      Those that claim had no choice but to recognize FYROM are full of baloney. They didn’t have to call it “Macedonia”. In 1992 they could been principled and argued to annex the former Vardar Yugoslavia to another state to end this issue once and for all. Instead they backstabbed their own allies and use FYROM as a proxy to attack Greeks. The self-proclaimed defenders of western civilization — attacked its birthplace Greece.

      Everyone knows the former Yugoslaviand are not “ethnic” Macedonians. Its blatantly obvious they are frauds. It was never about them. It was always about going after Greeks. The evasion over the former Yugoslavians sudden transformation into ancient Macedonians has made that abundantly clear.

      Since some of our alleged allies are essentially in a covert act of war against my homeland — the Greek government should be looking at a more militant approach to the situation. When words fail, force is regrettably the only alternative. Judging by US non-recognition of Republic of Taiwan because of nuclear armed Chinese concerns, it is a good bet the US would dump FYROM like a rock if they knew Greece had quietly developed 50 Megaton nukes.

      Its unfortunate people still think like this but they tend to be much more sensitive to borders and names when they know the countries they are casually threatening can fight back.

    2. The ongoing attempt to diplomatically isolate Greece on this issue by our alleged allies (see US and modern governments and media) isn’t going unnoticed by Greeks. It will fail because ultimately Bulgaria is also hostile towards FYROM. You can call one country crazy but when two start saying the exact same thing, then the person that’s been calling them crazy starts to look a manipulative idiot.

      Bulgaria was the first nation to recognize FYROM. They saw it as an extension of the Balkan wars (as IMRO was a Bulgarian organization that started these Macedonia word games) The reason for the recent cooling of relations between Bulgaria and FYROM is because Yugoslav communists obliterated their identity so thoroughly, they no longer see themselves as Bulgarians. Gruevski has even taken it further by trying to turn them into ancient Macedonians.

      To make them into “ancient Macedonians” Gruevski needs a middle age narrative to antiqutity — thus he usurps Bulgarian history just like he does Greek. Thus ethnic Bulgarians realize they face casual ethnic erasure just like Greeks. Ultra nationalist Gruevski not only encourages “united Macedonia” irredentism against Greece, but Bulgaria as well. (not to mention Albania)

      If the evasion of FYROM’s sleazy apologists continues, a major regional conflict is potentially in the works. The rhetoric and nationalism is increasing in the region. No amount of narration by the smooth taking bigots that supported FYROM is going to quell nationalism at this juncture. Turkey will take FYROM’s side. Serbs and Albanians will take the side the other side isn’t taken. Others may end up getting involved too. The don’t call the Balkans a powderkeg for nothing.

      Most Europeans want an EU but most Europeans don’t want a federalized EU being stuffed down their throats. They want an EU of sovereign states. The EU is to prevent war and promote trade not for the purpose of destroying our identities.

      Neither Greeks nor Bulgarians are going to commit ethnic suicide for the sake of unethical bigots hostile towards our very existence. If other nations quietly attack us through FYROM, we have a right to defend ourselves.

      Obviously Greece is no match for America militarily. However we can work to acquire nukes and also destroy any last shred of credibility the US has as defenders of the west (rather behaving like imperialists). Greece cutting NATO ties and giving Russians a place to park their nuclear subs in the Aegean would definitely hurt US diplomatically. There would be no way to evade our concerns then.

      The Russians are clearly looking for friends and since our allies have decided to try to betray us this Macedonia issue, it would be a good fit. It would be ironic if Americans claimed there is no such thing as a real Greek as they defended “Macedonians”…as the Russians defended Greece. American “ethics” at work.

      “This (US) government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece” – US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26)

      1. Sei un stronzo e nazista, voi moderni Greci cosa siete? mi rispondi se siete antichi Greci o siete misto di Africani come eravate anche nella anticchita. Leggi un po la storia Il nome Grecia non esisteva in antichita la penisola era popolata con il stati città ede erano diversi uno ad altro. La Makedonija che tu chiami furom e sempre esistita li dove e adesso e non e mai stata un stato cità come altri popoli elenici. E alla fine mi rispondi da dove viene nome Grecia e perchè la bandiera di questa grecia assomoglia alla bantiere Scandinavi.Makedonija e al popolo Macedone e voi non siete Macedoni

        1. Sorry but u have it completely wrong. All scholars including historian’s, archaeologist’s, anthropologist’s & linguist agree that the ancient Macedonian’s were of Greek stock & that the Yugoslav’s of today have nothing to do with Macedonia or ancient Macedonians, it’s just a brainwashed garbage fed to the Slavic’s of the region for the last 70 years.

        2. English website. Speak English dear.

          You might also want to put aside the Nazi absurdium. Save the crocodile tears of “persecution” for the greek hating bigots that supported you — that today try to whitewash your identity quick change into “ancient Macedonians” and irredentism. (and act of war against the greek people)

          For anyone that buys your manipulative garbage.. let me quote the long forgotten assurances of your own representatives.

          “We are Slavs. There’s no connection between us and Alexander the Great. ” – Kiro Gligorov, President of FYROM
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_gjBAhak18

          ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’

          – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

          ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’

          – FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives, Washington DC, January 22 1999

        3. lo stronzo nazista lo sei tu.ignorante.quel scherzo che oggi tu barbaro chiami macedonia non e altro che una creazione di tito.della anticha macedonia nel vostro stato c e un 20% un 70% in grecia e un 10% nel territorio bulgaro.la tua capitale era fuori dai confini dei antichi in terra barbara.dimmi un po ignorante che lingua parlava alessandro il magno!!qualle lingua trovi su tutti i monumenti!!dimmi un po fasista come mai tu parli slavo e non greco come parlavano i antichi(che erano greci)il nome ignorante e HELLAS come nella antichita εστιν ουν ελλας και η μακεδονια!!pero sei troppo stupido per capire alcune cose.quello che tu presenti come bandiera e la stella di vergina che per te non ha significato.lo ha pero per i greci ,come lo stesso nome di makedonaw o alessandro ha un significato che tu barbaro non puoi capire.per quando riguarda la nostra bandiera moderna non ha niente a che vedere con quelle scandinave,ma la tua mancata intelligenza non ti permettono di distinguere.sei arrivato il 6 secolo dopo Christo e pretendi d essere macedone.sei un ladro.un parassita della storia.lo sei sempre stato.

    3. Listen and learn; yes we Hellenes have gotten used to being at the top of the food chain and its taking a while for our heads to deflate but look at you supposed americans, 240 years and your full of crap already, You anlos Spanish germaniacs,,, compare that to our 3 grand and you see what I mean and don’t forget you are also part greek for you are all hellenized, you go to theatre? Yes? You go to gym? Yes? You have heat and running water? Yes? You have history and you study how to read write speak music math philosophize? Yes? Yes? Yes? You eat with fork not hands? Yes? You say spartan? You mean greek same for Athenian thessalonean cretan Ionian macedonian syracusan rhodean peloponisean thracian pontian epirotan? R U an idiot? Lets say Quebec breaks from Canada and so does new Brunswick, NB TAKES NOVA SCOTIA WITH IT AND CLAIMS NEW ENLAND AS PART OF THEIR HERRATEDGE AND COUNTRY, AND PUTS IT ON THEY’RE MAPS (at least they’re the same people historically anyway as the ones in the US not Chinese turks or slavs) AND START TEACHING THEIR CHILDREN THAT THEY’RE NEW ENGLANDERS! AND THAT THE MEAN OLD AMERICANS WHO SPLIT THEM AND THEIR BROTHERS IN MAIN MASSACHUSETTS AND THE REST OF N.E. STATES DURING THE WAR OF 1776 WHICH THE AMERICANS HAVE FABRICATED FROM THE REALITY OF WHAT REALY HAPENED, HOW THE SO CALLED AMERICAN ILLEGALY SPLIT FROM ENGLAND AND TORE NEW ENGLAND APART. THE USA NEEDS TO GIVE THEM BACK THE LAND THEY STOLE, ALONG WITH THEIR ENTRAPPED BROTHERS THAT HAVE BEEN FORCED TO ACCEPT AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP! Now 38 years later the rest of Canada breaks up due to the hardships of living under a mostly english style government and the backing of Russia Germany and China which the help of India Pakistan and iran, the crazy thing is that France England america and Quebec along with the rest of the Canadian teritories which have agreed that the citizens of the combined NOVA scotia/new Brunswick areas know now as NEW ENLAND should be recognized as such, america says yes but tnhey. Should be the called NBNS NEW ENGLAND of previous Canada or NBNSNEopC( big mistake big huge mistake… Everyone hates the US, why give them amo??? Big big BIG mistake! They should be called NBNS OF REVIOUS WHO GIVES A CRAP BUT NEVER THE WORDS NEW ENGLAND)
      So, everyone is in agreement that the new country of NBNS NEW ENGLAND IS RECOGNIZED. As soon as its recognized it starts printing maps showing Philadelphia as its capital and the minute men as its heros, on the WORLD map its name is NEW ENGLAND, it’s flag is a pine tree on a whitE background on the upper left and thirteen red white and blue stripes THE 1775 NEW ENGLAND COLONIES MAP!
      THE AMERICAN PUPLIC LAUGHS AT IT UNTIL ALL THE COUNTRIES OF THE WORD ACCEPT this bullshit as real. America is not the country it was, 40 years of hardship has taken its toll on the country. THE military hasn’t had an upgrade since Regan in the 1980’s while the NBNSNEWENGLANDopC or as its know now NEW ENGLAND WITH PHILADELPHIA AS ITS “CAPITAL” has had a golden age along with Mexico Cuba France Spain and Russia. THE southern states have a much much stronger economy than the nortern states, but are still weak compared to Mexico especially, who by the way has its eyes on the jewels of Florida Texas California and Nevada with its solar power plants that juices the whole southwest including Texas and california. HOW THE FK YOU LIKE THAT SCENERIO MOTHERSUCKERS! It’s nice to be a bully and whatch the great greeks suffer isn’t it you sons of bloody bitches.
      “Yeah sure, the Macedonians have a right to name themselves what ever they like, who do the greeks think they are, bla blabla bla bla blablabla bla bla” you stupid barbarians, no matter what we’ve taught you youre a bunch of no good lying cheating jealous toddlers with immense power and that just sucks you bunch of goofs baboons buffouses idiots, how we let you get in charge is beyond comprehension. We should have burned you all out of Constantinople and the 4th crusade before it got into the hellespont, but we made the same mistake then due to treachery as we made with allowing the name “MACEDONIA” to be used in any way or form for the Farrar t0erritory of southern Ugoslavia which means (union of Slavic lands) so, explain to me, you, you barbarians, why and how it’s right for slavs who are not remotely related at all to Macedonians and not even in the same geographical area and as foreign a language as possible from the greek, can name themselves as greeks of any kind?

    1. In no way, historically, or culturally, are the people of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia descendants of the Ancient Macedonians.

      The Ancient Macedonians were a Greek speaking people, at the periphery of the Ancient Greek world. The spoke Greek, practice Greek customs, believed in the 12 Gods of Olympus (Mt. Olympus or Όλυμπος actually being part of their kingdom) and self identified as Greeks. Alexander I showed his descent from the Argead Dynasty (of Argos – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty, http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/33619/Argead-Dynasty). Alexander III (the Great) stated “Alexander, son of Philip and the Greeks, except Lakedaimonians – from the barbarians living in Asia”, Plutarchos, ‘Alexander’ 16.18.

      The Ancient Macedonian kingdom still exists, with its people, in the northern Greek province of Macedonia.

      Your link about Ancient Genes, is in relation to the Arnaiz-Villena study. A study that has been ridiculed by all the major geneticist from around the globe. It was such that Arnaiz-Villena had to retract his paper. The man is a convicted criminal : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1122636/ , and with regards to his ‘genetic’ study, worked with the University of Skopje (who were also his funding sponsor) to create his ‘paper’. Shortly after his paper was released (and later retracted), three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitationsof Arnaiz-Villena’s methodology.

      They stated that “Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics…”, making
      specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as
      “anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups”

      No multiple-marker analysis has ever duplicated Arnaiz-Villena’s
      results. In The History and Geography of Human Genes (Princeton, 1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza grouped Greeks with other European and Mediterranean populations based on 120 loci. Then, Ayub et al. 2003 did the same thing using 182 loci.

      With regards to the Ancient Macedonian Kingdom being a distinct nation, this has no basis in fact. Nations are a modern idea, in Ancient times there was no concept of a nation. There was, however, ethnos (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ethnicity?q=ethnicity). The Hellenes (Greeks) had an ethnos of being Greek, as well as attributing themselves to their city states or Kingdoms (e.g. Macedon, Epirus, even Sparta). Thus someone from Athens was an Athenian, Sparta a Spartan, Macedon a Macedonian. The difference between Macedon and for example Athens or Corinth, is that while they moved on to the City-State system, Macedon did not – it kept the old Kingdom system as Argos had originally, and has been quoted as being more Homeric (i.e. as per Homers examples of Kingdom’s in the Iliad).

      If you’d like to read what the professionals have to say, please go to http://macedonia-evidence.org/. This website was created to invite Classical Scholars (Historians, Archaeologists) to examine the evidence on the history of Macedonia.

      The dispute between two countries for the name “Macedonia” brought up misinformation and inaccuracies concerning ancient Macedonia and its king Alexander the Great.

      The scholarly community has a duty to preserve historic truth.

      So far 374 scholars, from around the globe, have co-signed the petition within this website, which has been sent to Pres. Obama.

      Thanks for reading.

      1. Con Mitropoulos unlike you, I will use my own words to tell some points I will not do copy paste writings of some nationalist web- pages … the kind of which you have exhausted your words . Im not going into Antiquity for the simple reason that happened very .. very .. very long and it would be incorrect and audacious to claim that I’m just here kind of a successor of some military leader named Alexander. But let me say my friend that neither you as Mitch mitropolis from Australia have a connection with the ancient Socrates or platon. Of course we dont want to forgot that between them and you is a big time gap filled with many events in the violent and always interesting Balkans .But what was eye catching for me in your copied text wasone sentence ..I quote “The Ancient Macedonian kingdom still exists, with its people, in the northern Greek province of Macedonia” … and Im kindly asking you what kind of drugs you are using???
        The time is 1926 not long ago if I’m not mistaken yours today ” Macedonians ” are actually refugees from Asia Minor … respektably Pontic Greeks and Karamanlides Greeks, people who were never part of the territory of Macedonia and the people who has very little with macedonian culture or habbits. It is sad to see how the current situation brings their culture to die very slowly, for example Karamanlides Greeks have spoken turkic but not anymore now they have to be macedonians. Even the poor greeks once living in Russia,Ukraine (Bessarabia) have to be some kind of macedonians and they came there just 20 years ago ! Next time dont go so far in the past…it is ok if you go to the early years of the last century…you know the years in which you want to be forgoten. Malakas

        1. May I ask you Robert who thee Cretan Greeks were fighting for in the Macedonian campaign in 1904 to 1908’did hundreds of Cretans just get up one day and go to ottoman Macedonia to fight for nothing?what support did the get from the locals if the locals were not greek as we’ll to fight the Bulgarians?were is your Macedonian tribe when this is going on?

          1. why for nothing? we were the same religion (and stil are) as far as I know lots of macedonians (the one you are calling them slavophono) were fighting against nazi germans together with greeks in region of Macedonia, why then? I think grandfather from Gruevski was WWII greek hero ..the only diference is that you are calling him greek and his family says he was macedonian ! Look I think Mr.Serwer point isnt much about history….but for the future.

        2. Hahaha, not nationalistic of you at all, Robert 😛 Another typical Skopjan fallacy that all the 2.5 million Greek Macedonians are Asia Minor refuges. I suggest you search on the internet for the catalog of Greek schools in cities in the Villayet of Thessaloniki before 1912. Wow, what are all those Greek schools doing there?! Why are Greek schools dominant in all the cities of Macedonia? Apart from Greek schools being dominant in all South FYROM cities (like Monastiri/Bitola) and villages (like Gevgeli), there was at least one Greek school in every single city or village of the rest of FYROM!!

          The majority of Greek refuges in Asia Minor by the way installed in Athens.

          1. nice try but very wrong…. majority of minor asia greeks are in region macedonia. Athens is the biggest Albanian city in the world …dont mix the things.

          2. How conveniently you ignored the rest of my message, Robert. Typical Skopjan in denial. You filter out every part of the reality that doesn’t fit your “Macedonian” illusion. I now realise you are just a rant, there’s no meaning debating with you.

        3. Hi Robert, thank you for your response.

          The reason why I have links, etc., in my posts is I like FACTS. Unfortunately too many people publish crap nowadays, saying it is all true, with no facts to back it up. Everything in my post is mine, except for some the facts around Arnaiz-Villena. I’m sorry, since when was Oxford Dictionary or Wikipedia nationalistic websites? The post by MACEDONIA reference http://www.historyofmacedonia.org which is one of the most nationalistic websites from the FYROM (and its diaspora).

          With regards to the people in the northern region of Macedonia, not all the people there were refugees; yes a large number where transported from Asia-Minor, but here are the statistics from the Belgian magazine ‘Ons Volk Ontwaakt’ (21/12/1912) on the ‘Salonika Vilayet’ a Vilayet is an Ottoman province, the Salonika one a large amount of Greek Macedonia.

          Total inhabitants ~922,000:

          Muslim Turks – 335,000 (this group included Greek Muslims defined as Turkish)

          Muslim Bulgarians – 99,000

          Orthodox Vlachs – 180,000

          Orthodox Greeks – 168,000

          Orthodox Bulgarians – 45,000

          Jews – 55,000

          Muslim Vlachs – 25,000

          Other – 15,000

          As a side note to this, you do understand that since the mass migration there have been at least two generations. So the numbers of regional Greek Macedonian’s in this area would have increased. A note to this as well, the fact that tehre were Greeks in Asia-Minor, Pondus, etc., is a perfect view on the effect Alexander the Great had on the peoples. Robert it is just us going to the past – have you been to Skopje? The whole city is about the past the large Alexander the Great status, statues of Philip II, Karanos of Macedon, Aristole, etc. We have a whole nation trying to steal Greek history. So before you point the finger at the Greeks, try look at both sides here.

      2. I stopped reading at “The Ancient Macedonians were a Greek speaking people.” Koine is what was spoken in those ancient times, it was like the English of today. Koine was a Mediterranean language not just used by Greeks. It was used around the globe, for gods sake some even the Romans used it. The Greeks only claim it to be theirs once they were colonised in the 1800’s, only because they used the same characters, the language itself is completely different, if Alexander were to speak to a normal Greek in todays time he would think they were speaking a completely different language. Not to mention there are quotes from ancient ‘Greek – for political correctness’ philosophers, pro anti-Macedonian philosophers, and even Aristotle himself, who not only have many quotes stating their different languages, there’s also quotes distinguishing the Macedonians as barbarians, much liked they classified the Romans and other people of that time. I am aware that there were different dialects but clearly, there is way too much that adds up for me to believe else wise. The Greek language has as much related words as to do with the Alexander period as the current Macedonian language does. I’m neither Macedonian or Greek, but i am fascinated with Alexander and his works, which is why i’ve gotten thus far by reading old, unbiased, non-Greek/Macedonian resources/books.

        1. Oh really. And which unbiased books wud these be Nikolaj, can u pls list them for us. As far as I no, the Egyptians, Persians, Romans, Sumerians, Babylonians, Mongolians etc all had their own languages. So if the Greeks spoke this “Mediterranean” language that means it belongs to the country called “Mediterrania”. Well sorry, but no such country ever existed. But if this is true, then why didn’t the Greeks have there own “Greek” language???
          As for quotes, here’s two…
          1)‎”Men of Athens… In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery.” (From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, “Histories”, 9.45)
          2)”Alexander came by the statue of his father and spoke loud:`Youths of the Pellasgians and of the Macedonian’s and of the Hellenic Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for AS Hellene’s WE should not be slaves to barbarians.”
          So clearly, Alexander saw the Persians as Barbarians right?

        2. You claim to be fascinated by A the G. No doubt then you will have referenced the writings of Plutarch, Diodorus, Arrian, Curtius Rufus and Justin, being the principal surviving ancient sources on A the G himself. No doubt you will also have referenced the writings of Herodotus, being a principal surviving ancient source on the Macedonians more generally. No doubt you will have further referenced the writings of Josephus, Polybius, Isocrates, etc etc etc, who also wrote of the Macedonians. These, all of these, and many many more, affirm the Greek perspective on Macedonia and the Macedonians and p..s all over the vulgar Bulgars. Lol.

    2. With regards to the ‘ethnic Macedonians'[sic] of the FYROM (FYROM, recognised name, by the United Nations – Resolution A/RES/47/225 – Dated 8 April 1993), are a slavic people, who migrated into the region around the 6th C. CE. Their language is a Bulgarian dialect (south-Slavic language), which they was codified as ‘Macedonian’ under the rule of FM Tito in 1945. “The implementation of standard Macedonian: problems and results” Friedman, V. (1998).

      The alphabet used is the Cyrillic Alphabet, an Alphabet created in the 9th C. CE by Sts. Cyril and Methodius (two Greeks from Thessaloniki)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius. This alphabet is used by many countries like Bulgaria, Serbia, the FYROM, Russia, Ukraine, etc. There is no historical fact that this alphabet or language existed in the area prior to the Slavic migration.

      A quick intro to where the FYROM came from… just before the Balkan Wars, Bulgarian nationals created a movement called the IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization), the purpose of this was to create a fake ‘Macedonian’ identity for the Bulgarian people and Slavic speaking Greeks within the Macedonian region. The aim, to gain all regions of Macedonia under Bulgarian rule, and thus access to the Aegean.

      This was to fail. Bulgaria, Serbia, the Ottomans and Greece go through two Balkan wars, where Bulgaria loses. The region of Macedonia is split between Greece (return of Hellenic historic land), Kingdom of Serbia, and a small part to Bulgaria.

      During FM Tito’s reign in Yugoslavia, Tito creates a ‘republic’ within Communist Yugoslavia called the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, with the same aim to add the Greek and Bulgarian regions of Macedonia to Yugoslavia, and thus provide his land-locked country access to Thessaloniki and her port, and thus access to the Aegean. He has the Bulgarian dialect they are speaking codified and called ‘Macedonian'[sic], and instils a national identity for the south-Slavic peoples in this region (now calling themselves Macedonian’s).

      The IMRO takes on a new face within Yugoslavia calling themselves the VMRO (which they continue to use to this day). The VMRO basically spoon-feed the people of the SROM the same stuff daily; they are the real Macedonia’s, they are a special people that came from a genetic pool of humans called Macedonoids (the white master race – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Prayer_%28video%29), and so forth. Fast forward to the 1991. The FYROM, a new republic founded out of the breakup of Yugoslavia takes the name ‘Republic of Macedonia’. Greece takes alarm. The FYROM run internal (and since 2002 external) propaganda campaigns to tell the world they are the REAL Macedonian’s, that the Macedonian’s were never Greek, that they are the descendants of Alexander the Great, etc., etc., Ad nauseam.

      They even have a state sponsored expansionist (they call it irredentist) concept claiming that the region of Greek Macedonia, and the regions of Bulgarian Macedonia are actually part of their homeland, and they need to be re-unified and that the Treaty of Bucharest destroyed and split their homeland. They have violated section 7 of UN treat 32192 (signed by FYROM and Greece), by renaming their airport to Alexander the Great Airport, by erecting statues of Philip II, Alexander the Great, Aristotle, etc., in Skopje, and the list goes one… So apart from this south-Slavic nation trying to steal Greek history, culture and identity (undisputed Greek history), they are also posing a national security threat to Greek sovereign land.

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Ethnicmacedonia.jpg/735px-Ethnicmacedonia.jpg

      I’ll leave you with this photo of the FYROM Prime Minister, Nikola Gruevski – http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P-WP3q7JBr0/T-ISEyVVZPI/AAAAAAAAEFY/lrmUHMuwpdM/s400/violation3.jpg

    3. You have just directed us to propagandist blog site written by uneducated schmuks… & furthermore, you directed us to a debunked DNA analysis also conducted & written by schmuks.
      Can you please direct us to any credible historian/s that claim that the people of FYROM are descendants of the ancient Macedonian’s… please, I would like to see just ONE historian, archaeologist or anthropologist say this. Every time one of you Yugoslav’s coin the phrase “the Macedonian’s were not Greeks”, this does not automatically qualify the people of FYROM as “Macedonian’s”, even if this phrase was true!
      It is historically written by Herodotus & Kallisthenes (ancient Greek historians) that both Alexander I & Alexander III self identified as Greeks. What do you have to say about this… that’s right, “No comment” as always.

  3. The Belgian province of Luxembourg (not independent) lies right next the Grandduchy of Luxembourg (independent country), of which it was part until the latter’s dismemberment in 1839. There doesn’t seem to be any animosity among the two, today. #ItsaGreekthing

    1. Every country is judged on its own dynamics and circumstances. Besides Luxembourg is not a Western Balkan state and I doubt the Republic of Macedonia wants to shrink to a tiny entity around Skopje and with a population of 500,000. If I understood you correctly.

  4. Let me answer to you point to point:
    1) There was the kingdom of Macedonia. Duh?!
    2-3) USA is at the other side of the planet, not text to the real Macedonia and the real Athens. Apart from that, the citizens of the USA do not claim they are Macedonians or Atheneans, nor have they territorial claims against Greece. They recognize and honour Macedonia and Athens.
    4) Am I supposed to laugh?
    5) I wouldn’t try to compare the history and significance of Mexico with Macedonia. I also wouldn’t get into that story of USA stealing half Mexico (New Mexico is not the only state that was Mexican in the past), it hurts.
    6) Actually there’s much of a confusion when you talk with a non-USA American. There IS identity theft. Skopjans think they are connected to ancient Macedonians and are heirs to their civilization. To justify the fact that they don’t even talk the same language as ancient Macedonians they make up stories like “Ancient Macedonians had their own language and didn’t speak Greek” stuff like that that constitute serious falsification of history.
    7) Macedonia kept some southern PARTS of Paeonia subordinate (they had to pay taxes and be quiet), but further there was no “expansion” of Macedonia to the North. Alexander created Alexandrias and spread the the Greek culture all the way to India and Egypt, but performed no cultural expansion to Paeonia at all. Skopje has NEVER been part of Macedonia, but HAS been the capital of the Bulgarian Empire. As was Ohrid. Funny you don’t mention Bulgarians anywhere in your post. Try to talk with some (educated) Bulgarians. You’ll be surprised how they confirm all the Greek standpoints and they agree that Skopjans are just Bulgarians who had the “bad luck” to be liberated from the Turks by Serbia and not by Bulgaria, trapped in Serbia/Yugoslavia for 80 years.
    8) You compare the architectural choices of the late 18th century with the early 21st century?! That was the architectural style back then!! Building such a thing in 2014 is next to a crime. The internet is full of criticism from architects about Skopje 2014 which has nothing to do with the Slav element and the age it is being constructed. It purely takes part in the process Antiquization of Skopje. Google that if you don’t know what it is.
    9) First of all, Greece did not make use of any veto. The decisions of NATO are unanimous and FYROM did not receive an invitation at all because it doesn’t comply with certain principles of NATO one of which is good neighbourship. How can Greece and Bulgaria call FYROM ‘an ally’ when there are so important issues between those countries. NATO did that mistake already with Greece and Turkey and that’s already one awkward situation of frienemies enough in the ally to add another one! Funny you talk about the Greek stance towards the interim-accord, but not about stance of Skopje. Skopje did not respect the interim-accord for a single moment! They never used “FYROM” in contrary they try to promote “Macedonia” everywhere, they even violated the UN protocol and took advantage of a moment they were presiding a gathering of the UN to call to the podium the “President of Macedonia”, an act showing what an immature and respectless political entity they are, unable to respect international rules and protocols. The interim-agreement also says that the name is temporary and that the two sides should come down to a definite commonly accepted name within 10 years. Not only they didn’t show any sign of wil to reach a compromise (because they new that the first 10 years time would be on their side), but they haven’t moved even a centimeter from their 91 stance, not the slightest move of compromise, where as Greece has made a step forward already and although it didn’t accept the term “Macedonia” being in the name at all back in the 90s, now it say it proposed a name that includes “Macedonia” but only as a geographical term.
    10) Wow, really? It says it in their constitutions? So I can go to a court of theirs and sue them? How naive. Every single act of them, in official and unofficial level shows their territorial claims:
    – Their prime minister Gruevski paying respects to a monument on which somebody put a map of “Greater Macedonia” (including Greek and Bulgarian territories – now THAT’s a state that never existed by the way)
    http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9575/gruevski3tu9.jpg
    – The same map of Greater Macedonia hanging in high school classes and it’s inside their history books!! In the same video the high school students are being asked where do they think their country ends, they all give Greek city names!!
    http://youtu.be/NOJgl0rtUnM?t=1m40s
    – Check this “momument” in Gevgeli, a village next to Greece, another map of Great Macedonia
    http://imageshack.com/a/img849/6671/tq1a.jpg
    – Check what’s on the t-shirt of this Skopjean Slav standing next to the Greek soldier (who by protocol is not allowed to move or talk)
    http://imageshack.com/a/img823/5728/d2ht.jpg
    – such boards hanging around in Skopje
    http://imageshack.com/a/img18/8981/uyxv.jpg
    – souvenir bank-notes with the coast of Thessaloniki being sold in Skopje
    http://imageshack.com/a/img853/41/sps1.jpg
    – But also renaming the Skopje airport and the countries only highway to “Alexander the Great” and putting statues of Alexander and Philipp (two people they have NOTHING TO DO WITH) everywhere in Skopje
    really I can go on for ever. Youtube is full of their nationalistic videos guys tattoo “Great Macedonia” on their body (http://imageshack.com/a/img35/9858/u6ky.jpg)

    We don’t want another change of the borders in the Balkans!! We’re tired of wars!! Let’s stop this madness. Even if Skopjans are no threat to Greece, they have a huge Albanian minority by now 30% of the population which they completely ignore, lost in their Macedonian dream, and it’s working as a time-bomb for the next war/border-change in the Balkans. They should focus on finding an identity that includes those people too and unites all the ethnicities of that already too small country to fit them.

  5. Kill this article, the Greeks only complain about the name of Macedonia to control the land and it’s people not to preserve history.We are who we are, and we are here to promote good relationships with every body. I am Macedonian from Northern Greece and we have no similarity with Athens.

    1. Hahaha! the only reason you want this article “killed” is because the Greek replies are credible & full of substance & that no credible arguments exist from the Slavs or Mr Sewer.
      You are actually a Yugoslav living in the Northern Greek province of Macedonia. No true Macedonian would ever denounce his/her Greek ethnicity or say that they have no similarity with Athens.

      1. But what she says got point….it is all about some piece of land. There isnt nationality Slavs—– it doesnt exsist such things. They are Macedonians regardless of beeing slavic or non slavic. Bulgarians are not diveded of those by Slavic origin and the ones of Tatarian origin, kapish?
        For almost before denying other nationality always and always look at yours becase buddy in modern greek creation there are plenty things …like Arvanitas who today are proud greeks …in fact a pure albanians !!! Process of Hellenization which means chainging the name of places,people into more greek sound (what ever that means) heeee..lots of lots of things.

        1. Robert, I never said that Slavic is a nationality… so that you know, it’s an ethnicity, there’s a difference. There are many Slavs with a different nationality all over the world, so please, if you had any intelligence, you would be insulting yourself with your amusing replies.

          1. it is not amuse … you used word Slavs of Mr.Serwer it wasnt me. But you know certanly that Slav influence was and still is part of modern greeks…you know that dont you. Even there are Germans Slavs. But nobody is using Slav anymore….you will never meet a person let say Russian who will antwort Im Slav Russian or serb who will say Im Slav Serb.therefore there isnt need to say Slav Macedonian simply because not every russian not every serb are of slavic origin (same with all other nationality)

          2. Clearly you aren’t aware that Greece performed ethnic cleansing in Aegan Macedonia. You also aren’t aware the only reason why the Article is going on the way of Greece, much like their history, is simply because the magnitude of people preaching. There is about a 10:1 ratio of Macedonians speaking. The Macedonian people are generally poor, there is no one to speak for them, the last thing the people care about in their land is for their countries name, they just want to live peacefully. I cannot speak for them as i’m not Macedonian, but here from Japan, I can easily say that just from the generality of this conversation, what you wrote was absolutely appalling. If you even deny this as a possibility, clearly, you’d be giving me an even worser perception of your Greek written history. You do understand only the Greeks are conforming to these views, where every other person with other nationalities are still confused to simply how. Believe as you wish, but i’m in my last year in university for my history/accounting degree, and i can definitely say i’ve spent more time on this subject than any other.

          3. Yuhi, if u have spent more time than any other on this subject then I’m afraid all u have done is gone swimming in the sea of historical knowledge only to come out dry. Please show us all the countless credible historians that say that the Yugoslav people of the FYR are descendants of the ancient Macedonian’s & have a genuine link to antiquity!

          4. Yuhi, were is your proof that Greeks performed ethnic cleansing? If you don’t have proof you can keep your mouth shut, cause otherwise you’re a plain liar.

            You’d better stick with Asian history, because in European history obviously you suck big time!

        2. Why don’t you do some research about the ottoman census of 1904,1908,1911 gore the ottoman vilayet of Salonica and region of Macedonia and see how many Greeks it had.also can you tell us how many Macedonians it also had.then we will see who the Malaga is

          1. Otoman cenzuses were made on base of church information regarding their numbers of belivers …or you realy thought that the sultan was sending some guys over greece or serbia and he was going from door to door<???

          2. Robert there are many census from European sources as we’ll not just ottoman.but since your a ancient culture were is the Macedonian church in the ottoman census?

        3. Funny that Skopjans challenge the purity of others, but guarantee the purity of their nation… Ot’s amazing how jealous the Balkanians still are of the Greeks.

          1. Im not Skopjan…just simple plain Macedonian. Now, I dont give a flying fuck about Alexander origin ..he can be mongolian as far Im consider. Im not living in 2000 BC Im alive NOW in 21 century!I dont want to waste my life proving who was alexander or Platon or any of them and trying to link myself to them…hell nooo.That stupid idiotic job Im leaving to you nationalists from both side. Now about jealousy on Greece…. come on man …a portion of my salery is going for Greece…what a hell is there to be jelous of Greece??? be realistic right… we cant be jelous to any balkan states including greece …we are making only problems and nothing more. Grow up buddy there isnt worth enough to be jelous

          2. You, people, keep raving “I’m Macedonian, I’m Macedonian”, without even knowing what it means. Is it just a name? No. I bears meaning. It has its history and its significance way before you, people, showed up in Balkans (1000 year before actually). So no, you’re not Macedonian, and know you can’t say “I don’t give a damn about Alexander” if you wanna be Macedonian, because Alexander and Macedonian are two inseparable words. Just like Greek and Macedonian. Just like not any person can say “I am Greek”, without speaking the Greek language, knowing the Greek history and follow Greek customs and traditions.

        4. Robert, why does FYROM want the name Macedonia for their nation??? & “IF” they are “Macedonian’s regardless of being Slavic or non Slavic”, can you please explain to us how they are Macedonian’s… in which/what way are these people of FYROM Macedonian’s???

        5. Robert, of course nobody says Slav Russian or Slav Serbian, because alla Russians are Slavs and all Sebians are Slavs.

          You CAN say Macedonian Slav, though, or Slav Macedonian, because Macedonian is not a nationality. There are also Greek Macedonians and you deny to them THEIR right to an identity. That is, you’re doing to them the same thing you accuse that Greece is doing to your nation.

          1. Im not denying anything to anyone. Everyone is entitled to say how he fels like. I dont have problem if Kostas Karamanlis (who De facto is Karamanlides Greek) says he is feeling like Macedonian (even the greek one) ..who cares ,it is his personal things and I can never say no Mr.Karamanlis you are Turk or you are Syrian or whatever. Never mind you will never understand my point because basicly we are very diferent in some understandings.

      2. NO TRUER WORDS HAVE BEEN SPOKEN MY FRIEND!!!!! BUT YOU MUST UNDERSTAND POOR LENA’S ANGUISH SHE IS AN ADVOCATE OF AN ULTIMATE LIE!!!!! AND SHE KNOWS IT!!!!!! ZEYZ PROTOS!!!!!!!

  6. Allow me the luxury of replying to the other comments.

    To my Belgian friend (ik woon nu in Nederland 🙂 ) I have to say that the cultural differences between Luxemburg, Belgium and Netherlands are not so great as in the Skopje-Greece case. They all were parts of the Kingdom of the Netherlands till 1830 and actually the only reason that Luxemburg is an independent country right now, is because the King of Netherlands had the bad luck to have only daughters and Dutchies are can not be inherited by Prinsesses, only Prinses.

    Thus it’s a bad example. A more similar example would be if after the splitting of Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic had decided to call itself “Bavaria”. Do you think Germany would have allowed it? I don’t think so. So it’s not really a Greek thing. Bavaria and Czech Republic is the perfect example since, Czechs are Slavs too, Bavarians are German and the the term Bavaria and Bavarian can only be associated with something typical german, although Czechs have lived at the borders of the area for quite long.

    To Skopjan fellow that signs as “MACEDONIA”:
    1) I don’t quite understand your first link. How does the description by the state department of the relations between USA and another country (namely FYROM) have anything to do with weather Greeks are right on this issue? Is “whatever the boss says is right” your philosophy? hmm… On the other hand I’m greatly interested in what the American academia has to say. And in a letter to Obama they say that Greeks are right: http://macedonia-evidence.org

    2) This is a piece of typical pseudoscience very popular in FYROM. The specific paper show connection of Japanese people with Africa, not to mention connection Inca’s with Greeks. Trying to prove everyone with genes was a popular trend of the 19th century, people being enthusiastic about the discoveries of biology, but already long abandoned cause it failed. Claiming that Greeks have no connection to ancient Greeks, but Skopjans do is ridiculous. The universe knows Slavs came to the Balkans at the 6th-7th century, 1000 years after the death of Alexander the Great.

    But the Skopjans go even further with this pseudoscience. They even reach racism! Listen what this Skopjan university professor (!!!) says on TV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIFgiLIZdwc

    3) Only orators (speechers/laywers) like Demosthenes, had the tendency to call Macedonians ‘barbarians’. But that was a political stance. Macedonians had a kingdom whereas Atheneans were democrats, so they saw the rise of Macedonia as a threat to their democracy.

    Becides Macedonians were taking part in the Olympic games, something allowed ONLY to Greeks. That’s the biggest prove they were widely considered Greeks, in contrast to what 1 or 2 individuals might have said against them.

    Funny Strabo is mentioned in this link. Strabo, one of the greatest geographers has written in Geographica: “Estin oun Hellas kai i Makedonia” = “Macedonia is of course also Greece”. Google it 🙂

    1. Don;t confusse “Macedonia” or correctly said FYROM – the modern country which is a part of old Macedonia WITH THE OLD GREEK MACEDONIA and its historry. The habbitans of modern “Macedonia” or better called FYROM are 36% Albanians and 62% Slavian (Bulgarian or Serbian nations) speaking Slavian dialect, writting Slavian and having Slavian names. The old MACEDONIA of ALEXANDER THE GREEK had GREEK names, speaking GREEK ANCIENT LANGUAGE, GREEK COINS, GREEK NAMES and believed in GREEK GODS. The modern state called Macedonia organised a unfair propaganda..for a nation that does not exists, searching a national virtual and artificial identity ….falcifies the HISTORY

  7. Good morning Mr. Serwer. Thank you for your article and opinion on the subject of Macedonia. While I do respect your opinions, I do reserve my right to comment on them, based on my opinions also. To make things easier, I will order my comments in the same order as your comments. My reference to the ‘Republic of Macedonia'[sic] will be as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia; FYROM (as documented in United Nations – Resolution A/RES/47/225 – Dated 8 April 1993).

    Firstly, I believe that you may have misunderstood the ‘Name Dispute’ between Greece and the FYROM, and over-simplified the issue. I will try to explain as we go:

    1. Yes, all knowledgeable people know that the Ancient Hellenic Kingdom of Macedonia existed in Ancient times, and has not relation to the Modern ‘Republic of Macedonia'[sic]. Unfortunately, this is not the case to the layman; in many cases (which I have experience), when people are referred to Macedonia (in the Ancient sense) they believe this to be the area of the FYROM, not knowing the northern province of Greece is where the Ancient Kingdom resided before its borders were expanded by Alexander the Great. This cause a lot of confusion in my opinion especially as the people of the FYROM (backed by the government and their Diaspora) believe they are the true descendants of the Ancient Macedonians and promote this through propaganda. Do a search of ‘Macedonian’ in Google, most results will be sites that state that Ancient Macedonia is not Greek, that the FYROM’s people are the true descendants, ad nauseum. This is how misinformation is being brought to people’s attention.

    2. As above, this is not purely about a name. I’m sure that Macedonia, Ohia, is not claiming descent from the Ancient Macedonians, and if they did, I would be pleasantly amused. The FYROM, above the norther Greek region ARE claiming this, as well as Greek and Bulgarian territories (see United Macedonia movement, which is State sponsored http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Macedonia). This is a very different thing to a pure name.

    3. As above.

    4. This is a stupid comparison and not worth a response.

    5. Let’s say that tomorrow, the President of Mexico starts a state sponsored campaign to instill within his people that they need to recover the lost Mexican territories of Texas, New Mexico, California, etc. And lets say the people start to believe this, they start to hate the US, at a NATIONAL level. Do you think the US would stop and take notice?

    6. Americans is a term based on the Continent of the America’s. It’s the same as a Greek, Italian or German saying they are European, or an Indonesian or Singaporean saying they are Asian. To give you an example of what the name issues means in context with yourself – Lets say a province of Canada breaks away tomorrow, and lets say this province declares itself a new Republic called ‘The Republic of New England’. Now lets say that the State tells the people there, and their descendants, and so on, that THEY are the real New Englanders, that the New England state in the US is really their land, stolen by the US. They start propaganda campaigns, they start telling people that John Adams was from there, and use the New England seal as their new Republic flag. Think about this, and tell me how this would make you feel?

    7. The Greek people are not adverse to sharing, and initially the Government of the FYROM happily state they have no connection to the Ancient Macedonians:

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians.” FYROM’S President, Mr. Kiro Gligorov.(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
    February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

    “We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That’s who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD).” FYROM’S President, Mr. Kiro Gligorov.(from the Toronto Star newspaper, 15th March, 1992)

    “We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.” “Greece is FYROM’S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nimitz.” In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that “we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.” FYROM’S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka
    (Speach on the present situations in the Balkans, 22nd January 1999)

    “We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.” He also commented “there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country.”
    FYROM’s Ambassador to Canada, Mr. Gyordan Veselinov (Interview in Ottawa Citizen, 24th February, 1999)

    Since the Gruevski government, this has completely change. The government, and moreso the diaspora of the FYROM are adamant they are the true descendants of the Ancient Macedonians. That the Greek people have stolen their land and history. Check out these sites:
    http://www.makedonija.info
    http://ancient-macedonia.jimdo.com
    http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/

    …for a glimpse at what they have been told to believe. Their former PM, Ljubcho Georgievsk has stated:

    “Macedonians are the biggest counterfeiters of the Balkan history” FYROM’s third (3rd) Prime Minister, Ljubcho Georgievski(Extract from his book: This is Me)

    If they were to take their true history as people of modern Macedonia (post Slavic migration) there wouldn’t be such an issue and a name resolution would have probably been found decades ago.

    8. Yes, but Washington isn’t saying it used to be Rome is it now? You know its Washington, you know American’s live there. People in Washington are not walking around saying we are the descendants of the Romans, and Rome has been stole by the Italians.

    9. Greece’s stand here is probably more around leverage. If the FYROM was accepted into the EU and NATO, there would be no leverage to discuss the change in name – even though the UN recognises the FYROM as the FYROM, many countries are ignoring this and calling them ‘Republic of Macedonia'[sic], and ‘Macedonians'[sic]. What about the 2.5 Million Greeks in Greece’s province of Macedonia, who call themselves Macedonian’s as Greeks in Sparta call themselves Spartan’s? To accept the name Macedonia for the FYROM is like spitting in the face of the 2.5 Million Greeks.

    10. Amendments can be changed; what happens in 50 years time when the FYROM, decides that they want to ‘reclaim their historic land’ and lay claim to the Macedonian region in Bulgaria, and the Greek province of Macedonia? Constitutions can be created and destroyed. PM Gruevski is an avid sponsor of the ‘United Macedonia’ movement – http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9575/gruevski3tu9.jpg – which is an expansionist (although seen by the FYROM as irredentist) movement for the ‘reunification of the occupied territories of Macedonia’ with Thessaloniki (the capital of Greek Macedonia) as its capital.

    I understand that your post here is your opinion, but in my opinion you have simplified a complex issue, and take for granted what is really happening here. I suggest that you take some time to do some research on the real issues, and get both sides of the story.

    Thanks for reading.

  8. Dear Daniel,

    from Con’s reply, I realise I have misunderstood point 1. My apologies. But I still disagree with you that confusion cannot come up. Look how this couple lost money on a TV game because of this (innocent?) confusion. With all their confidence they reply that Alexander the Great was Greek, to get a great surprise to hear that he was not, that he was Macedonian and notice that the flag of Greece disappears and the flag of FYROM appears!!! If I were them, I’d sue this TV program me.

  9. 6. Depends what part of Canada broke away and decided to call itself “New England.” If the area you have in mind is one or more of the Atlantic Provinces, we here in (the current) New England might apply to join them – we have more in common with our neighbors to the north than we do with Mississippi and Louisiana, if often seems.

    BTW, New England is a region, not an individual state. Also, the problem the term “American” poses for other inhabitants of the continent is that we, and most of the world, use it to mean a citizen of the United States of America – not an inhabitant of the American continent. That’s certainly how my nickname here is understood.

    1. Thanks for the reply, Amer. I was just using this as an example. Macedonia in Northern Greece is also a region and not a State.

      Unfortunately the people in the Greek region of Macedonia, do NOT want to join the FYROM. And having a looming threat from a neighbouring country is a real threat to Greek national security.

  11. All the genes are mixed in all of the Europe for hundreds of years. Invoking genetical heritage to the Macedonian tribe (or for that matter to any other tribe from that period) is a scientifically invalid argument. A culture is a gene pool in a certain time in a certain region that has distinctive behaviour passed on via written word or verbally whose understanding by those who practice that culture makes their identity. I do not see much of the modern European culture in this manner the practice of the both, Greeks and Macedonians cultural heritage. There is no understanding in any form, neither for the other side nor for the trajectory European countries took on in a journey to make the continent better place of life for all.

    1. Dear Kecman,

      Every normal person in western europe knows what you have just wrote. Greeks are the only nation in the world who literaly belive that they are 100 % pure and 100% descedent of ancient greeks . Unfortunatly macedonians are becoming more like greeks ..and that is the sad story of this ….both are trying to prove that are more ancient then the other !!!!

      1. Modern Greeks are 100% continuators of the ancient Greek culture, no matter what blood runs in their vains. “Greeks are those who participate/bear in the Greek aducation”, Isocrates.

        1. If that makes you happier and makes you feel comfortable or sleeping better then I will say Sure why not Georgios Andronikidis is 100% reancarnation of Socrates !!! and I will give you Plato gratis , ok now?

          1. The question is not whether the Greeks are pure, but whether the ‘ethnic Macedonian’ [sic] of the FYROM are related to the Ancient Macedonians – as they claim, even to the absurd point of ‘we are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great’. We as Greeks, are not making this claim, but culturally we are descendants of the classical Greeks, including the Athenians, Macedonians, Spartans, Corinthians, Cretans, etc. Just because the IMRO told the slavic speaking population of the region of Macedonia in the late 19th Century that they were the real Macedonian’s does not make it so. I could just as well say I’m the direct descendant to of Marvin the Martian – just because I say so, doesn’t mean it is so. Unlike the FYROM, the Greek people have FACTS behind what they say, and until you can also provide REAL facts (unlike Donski and his ‘scholarly’ colleagues, then please do not come here and bag out the Greek people for their views.

      2. There is other nation which claim they are “100 % pure and 100% descedent” of ancient Illyrians.

      3. DEAR ROBERT YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND!!!!!! WE ARE 100℅ PURE IN OUR BELIEFS!!!!! AND YES HELLAS MIGHT HAVE MANY “GREEKS” AND OTHERS AS WELL, BUT THE HELLINES WHERE ALWAYS FEW IN NUMBERS. IT ONLY TAKES A FEW TO LEAVE THEIR MARK ON HUMANITY!!!

    2. Dear Kecman,

      Every normal person in western Europe knows what you have just written. Bulgarian speaking Yugoslav’s are the only people in the world today who literally believe that they are 100 % pure Macedonian’s and 100% descendants of ancient Macedonian’s. Unfortunately, these Yugoslav’s have the hide to ask the U.S. & German governments to help them steal the northern lands of Greece, and that is the sad story of this. One is trying to steal with the help of others whilst the other is trying to protect it’s own property!!!!

      1. actualy this is some stupid reply ! LOL …by the way you brought around not me….that northern part for the first time become Greece in 1912 …and you will not meet a single map in which on that particulary territory was ever writen Greece ! now, you are exactly like this guy in replying …that is why you are joke for us
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW1CsyiUG20
        enjoy

          1. George please, this map was made after 1912 but the Greeks sent it back to 1752 in a time machine they built. I guess we can’t fool these very smart Yugoslav’s at all.

      2. This is where YOU are WRONG…
        when the Greek army entered Kukuš (Kilkis) and occupied surrounding villages, about 400 old people and children were imprisoned and killed. Several dozen distinguished Macedonians were victims of the persecution in Kukuš, previously marked for death as potential hazards for Greek occupation. Specially trained Greek units destroyed over 40 Macedonian villages.
        About 4,000 refugees from Kukuš had gathered in the village of Akandzheli when on July 6, 1913, a Greek military unit entered the village. Though met with white flags, the village was burnt down and in the massacre which followed 356 refugees were killed, including children and the elderly. In Serez, Greek police imprisoned about 200 Macedonians and subsequently executed them. About 1,000 men were slain in the town of Nigrita alone. On the whole, in the region of southern Macedonia, the Greeks destroyed 16,000 houses and 100,000 Macedonians were forced to leave their homes and flee to neighboring countries.
        Macedonia, a territory that
        was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913

        1. In Kilkis, at 1913, Greek soldiers reached Macedonians (=Greeks) and Bulgarians. To distinguish them they asked to say ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΗ. Quess what: Macedonians said Thessaloniki, just like Alexander called his sister, while Bulgarians said Solun. Because Macedonians have always been Greeks. Bulgarians and other Slavs (SlavoSkopians included) cannot say Thessaloniki. They have no sound th(eta) in their languages. Now, think of a “Macedonian” that cannot say Thessaloniki, that is one of the most important Macedonian names and toponyms!

  12. Dear Mr Sewer, because Con & George have replied to all your points (quite credibly might I add), I will only comment on point No.5 of your points.
    You are correct, the USA calls one of it’s states “New Mexico”. Do you think the Mexicans would have a problem if they called this state just “Mexico’ without a prefix?
    What if Mexico decided to change it’s constitutional name to “Texas” with which it also boarders and went on to include the U.S state of Texas on it’s school room maps & call it “Greater Texas”, do you think the U.S government & it’s people have something to say about it???

    1. Mr.Sewer i believe since is of opinion that this is “comical”issue in the balkans instead should focus on bosnia were it seems everything is about to unravel with the croats seeking their own entity,the serbs wanting to secede and the bosnians wanting a islamic unitary state.HIs little project is about ot come apart.

  13. Dear Sir,
    We cannot rely on the Constitution of a country as the only reference. We also need to focus on its ruling ideology. The fact that the Constitution rejects territorial pretentions is no guarantee. The governing party VMRO-DPMNE and official Macedonian institutions consistently promote irredentist maps and discourse and they consistently present Greek Macedonia, western Bulgaria and eastern Albania as an extensions of their own state.

    Many officials and ministers of VMRO-DPMNE are neo-fascists in the manner they portray their “extended” country. Their ‘hero’ and activist Johan Tarculovski is a convicted war criminal and remains an irredentist propagator.

    Athens is a loser on the name issue. However, people need to join hands with the many, many Macedonian democrats and to concentrate their attention on the dangerous, rogue ideology of the ruling party and of the state institutions it funds, especially those that deal with the country’s history.

  14. I understand that Macedonians want to distinguish themselves from other Slavic speaking people closely related to them (Serbs and Bulgarians) and to show the world that are more civilized than them. However, claiming they are descendants from Alexander the great does not make them more civilized than those two. Erecting the statue of Alexandar the great in Skoplje and calling the airport by his name, does not prove anything.If we look at history and who Alexander the Great was, he was one of the the biggest butchers in the history of the world. So if they want to be associated with Alexander the Great, let them be. It does not make them better nation.

    It was Illyrian movement in 18th century which started by Croatians in Austro Hungarian empire. It does not prove anything and it does not make Croatians or any other nation from Balkans Illyrian. It was just attempt to show Austro Hungarians that Croats are other south Slavs are descendants of ancient Illyrians, who once lived in the area of present day Croatia.

    However, I support name Macedonia over the name FYRM. Let them call their country how they want. If Greek people know that Alexandar the Great was Greek, why do they care what Macedonians think?

    I can say that I am “descendant” from the Moses but that does not make me better man than somebody who is not.

    1. We don’t give a damn what they think. They’re 1.2m of Bulgarians with identity crisis. But we DO give a damn what the rest of the world things. People start already relating ANYTHING Macedonian to them instead of the Greek province Macedonia. People start confusing even who Alexander the Great was. Look at the Youtube video I posted above with this TV game where this couple answers with confidence and no doubt that Alexander the Great was Greek (cause they’re obviously educated) and those uneducated TV retards tell them they are wrong and that he was Macedonian and they change the flag of the answer from the flag of Greece to the flag of FYROM!!!! FYROM for god’s sake! That’s absurd!

      1. Georgios Andronikidis for goodness sakes you are absurd. Why do history books, reference Alexander as King of Macedonia. The Americans of all nations make a movie a couple of movie remakes of Alexander The Great and reference him as the king of Macedonia. if Alexander was Greek then they would reference that. but his not his Macedonian. He belongs to their history, The Greeks were part of his army to make it stronger, he never liked the Greeks he destroyed the villages and made them his slaves, it was after the death of Alexander that the Greeks wanted to claim him as his. Get over it!

        1. Because, at those times, Greeks have regional surnames: Pericles Athenian, Herodotus Alikarnasseus, Leonidas Spartan, … On the other hand, Alexander sent a letter to Darius where he says ” … me, after being King of Greeks, ….” , as if he wasn’t King of Macedonians!! Alexander destroyed villages of the Greeks who denied to support his campaign against Persians. Alexander and Macedonians did spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World, as you may read here: http://starkrealities.com/fortune.html

  15. Mr Serwer, once again you are grossly underestimating the fact that the government of the FYROM is actively engaging in historic revisionism. Other people’s comments above show the results of it and also there seems to be a tribal/racial undertone to it. Yes, there are many other parts of the world where there is ancient Greek-style architecture and statues of ancient Greek personalities, however, it is always clear that these are in admiration for ancient Greek/Roman culture. In the case of the FYROM there is an attempt to claim a part of Greek and Bulgarian cultural and historical heritage as its own and rename it as Macedonian. The only point in time that the term Macedonian had an ethnic content was in antiquity and this ended with the Roman conquest. The term Macedonian has not had an ethnic content since then but only geographic. This attempt to rewrite history and create some sort of ethnic Macedonian identity that started in antiquity and has been preserved until modern times is perceived by the other 2 parties as a threat and they do not necessarily have the political maturity nor military might to overlook it. Besides how can a Greek character have turned into a Slavic one and still remained the same? Your entire article is though a good example of how the New World does not understand the Old World.

    Macedonian salad is called so because its ingredients coexist in the bowl but do not mix with each other at any point, just like the different ethnic groups that inhabited the area in the Middle Ages.

    ANCIENT MACEDONIA IS EXCLUSEVILE GREEK BECAUSE ITS RULERS WERE GREEK AND THEY FOUGHT THE PERSIANS FOR AND ON BEHALF OF GREECE.

    Thanks.

  16. 1. You are an unethical liar. You very well know the former Yugoslaviana now suddenly claim to be “descendent of ancient Macedonians” and constantly use ancient Greek historical figures to insinuate Macedonia Greece is occupied. (trying to muddle the two regions as being the same)

    2, 3, 4,5 More evasion Mr. Serwer? Indeed there are many non-Greek regions that use non-Greek names. Greece objects to none of them because unlike the former Yugoslavians, they don’t claim to be related to ancient Athenians and insinuate 1/3 of Greece is “occupied”. How would you react if Mexicans renamed themselves into “Ethnic Californians” and claimed the entire Western US their “occupied” homeland as unethical dirt bags pretending not to notice to hide their embarrassment for recognizing obvious propagandist

    6. Yet more evasion Mr. Serwer? Still play pretending not to notice their identity transformation into “ancient Macedonians”? Do the other nations in the America’s claim George Washtington their national Hero? Build giant statues of him? Attempt to narrate Americans out of their very identity? Manipulate the name to Encourage their citizens to see 1/3 of the US as “US occupied America” — as the former Yugoslavians do to Greeks? (as masses of ethnic cleasning Greek hating bigots pretend not to notice to hide your embarrassment for “recognizing” obvious propagandist)

    7. Alexander went all the way to Indian. Do modern Turks feel the need to call themselves “Ethnic Macedonians”? Modern Israelis? Modern Jordinians? etc.. etc.. And do modern Egyptions do not attempt to claim 1/3 of Greece as “Occupied”? Do they attempt to narrate Greeks out of ethnic existence as the former Yugoslavians do — as the disgusting antiGreeks bigots that smugly supported them pretend not to notice?

    8. More evasion Mr. Serwer? Did the forefathers of America who used Greek architecture claim to be *the* Greeks as the modern Skopians now effectively do? (seeing as they now claim to be related to ancient Macedonians — as unethical weasals like you evasively pretend not to notice and continue to unfairly blame Greeks for your own mistakes of recognizing obvious propagandists)

    9. Those that call the former Yugoslavians need to explain to Greeks on what basis they do? They are in no way rrelated to ancient Macedonians (primarily ethnic Bulgarians). Not located in Macedonia. Their language is a Bulgarian dialect that was modified by the communists. To add insult to injury unprincipled snots like you hide that even the US governemnt itself claimed there was no such ethnic groups as Macedonians. What kind of Nato ally attacks their own allies?

    10. The former Yugoslavians claimed lots of things to their foreign apologists– including originally that they weren’t related to ancient Macedonians. Curiously all of you smug bigots that recognized them seem to be having selective memory and vision problems. The irony is by now claiming to be the “real” Macedonians they are effectively claiming to be the “real” Greeks.

    The anti-greek BIGOTS that continue to support them — in the face of overwhelming evidence irredentism and historical fraud don’t even ask simple questions. Like if they now claim to be related to ancient Macedonians, and ancient Macedonians identified with Hellenism, why would they be hostile towards Greece? Why would they give SLAVIC rather than Greek names to their cities? One would think they would even be thrilled to call themselves Greeks no?

    You are not a clown Mr. Serwer. You, like all of FYROM’s other smug apologists, are effectively an ethnic cleanser. including stepping all over the human rights of Macedonians in the real Macedonia — located squarely in Greece)

    Now that they’ve become “ancient Macedonians”, right before all your eyes, you all now have to attempt to unethically narrate Greeks out of ethnic existence to hide your shame for supporting them.

    No matter what happens with Greeks, betrayed by our own alleged NATO allies, Ancient Macedonian artefacts, all written in Greek, will forever stand as a testimonial to the hate and ignorance of FYROM’s apologists.

    If you, and any of FYROM’s apologists, had a shred of integrity you would condemned them the moment they tried to narrate themselves into ancient Macedonian and narrate Greeks out of ethnic existence. (literally trying to usurp our very identity — which we warned about in good faith twenty years ago and were disgusting mocked… mocked… by our alleged friends. Bigots the lots of you

  17. All you unprincipled bigots have achieved by recognizing obvious propagandist in FYROM is create permanent political instability in the Balkans.

    No more what a corrupt Greek state agrees to under pressure from pseudo-allies that betrayed Greeks (who also have to speak for any Greek citizens who don’t have a Greek identity), ethnic Greeks themselves will never consider Slavs “Macedonians”.

    After Greece tried to move towards compromise by offering a qualified solution, the former Yugoslavians went in the other direction by narrating themselves into “ancient Macedonians” and promoted irredentism against greece.

    The second the apologists of the former Yugoslavians tried to whitewash that — was the second you all revealed yourselves as Greek hating bigots. No people on earth would tolerate your behavior in our shoes.

    Greeks should not only reject any Macedonia in the name, but given the unethical evasions of FYROM’s apologists, Greeks should show mounting hostility towards anyone that continues to align themselves with the now obvious propagandists in FYROM. The former Yugoslavians apologists need to be called out as ETHNIC CLEANSERS OF GREEKS.

    If they attack our identity with “imagined communites” impurities approach to identity, we should equally attack their identites.

    Take for example Mr. Serwer, who claims to be “American”. Precisely what is that Mr. Serwer? As far as anyone can tell America is just a geography not a people. Within the geography a cult ideology has formed that attempts to assimilate ethnic groups into unhyphened “Americans”. However there is NO SUCH THING AS AN AMERICAN PEOPLE. Its a myth built on assimilation (the argument you anti-Greek trolls you against Hellenism right)

    Since American identity is built on a myth, I say we call George Washtington a Mexican. Mexicans are part of the America’s too right — and as we know Washington was an American. Therefore we should all look the other way as Mexico attempts to annex 1/3 of US, claims spanish the “American language”, declares George Washington their national hero, and attempts to narrate millions of unhyphenated American citizens out of their very identity. No doubt Mr. Serwer wouldn’t mind at all.

    See how bizarre and hateful it sounds Serwer? That in a nutshell is the person you’ve become.

    You want to know why Greeks are so xenophobic these days? Instead of FYROMs’ apologists to Greece condemning the former Yugoslavians for playing them, you’ve inch by inch have become monsters trying to ethnic cleanse Greeks to hide your shame for supporting them.

    Ethnic Greeks should be hostile towards FYROM apologists until they retract recognition and issue a formal apology to the Greek people. End of story.

  18. The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage – 2 simple academic reference-points no self-respecting diplomat or politician would argue against willingly!

  19. Macedonians have right to send FYRoM to the cleaners for presenting their newly established minor Slavic country, like ‘The Republic of Macedonia’, which is a provocation as far as Greece is concerned, an afront to Greece and Greeks in that order.

    A Slavic country called ‘Macedonia’ takes something away from Hellenism, takes something away from the Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative too. In that narrative, Macedonians entered the history books as a Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic peoples…FYRoM using their name for country-name – sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity, blurs the distinction between ancient-Greeks and Yugoslavs. Some children, pupils, and students, in some South-Slavic countries, already believe Macedonians originate from Proto-Slavs, and Alexander the Great was Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs.

    Macedonians have UN recognized right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. Macedonians have rights. FYRoM has the gall, the front, and the face to trample on the rights of Macedonians wanting to keep their ancient and archaic, Macedonian name and Identity, Hellenic. FYRoM deprives Macedonians from practicing their UN recognized self-determination right when they, a minor Slavic country, presents itself to the outside world like ‘Republic of Macedonia’. The Slavs there deprive Macedonians from their primordial Haemus-Hellenic, Proto-Identity. First recorded identity for Macedonians was Haemus-Hellenic, a recorded historical reference-point which cannot change without historian classicist-scholars having their say on the matter.

    Identity is inherited, passed-on, from one ethnic-racial, cultural-linguistic generation to the next one. Macedonian-Identity cannot change from Haemus-Hellenic to Yugo-Slavic with passing of time. Macedonian-Identity was cast in Hellenic mould >3 Milleniums ago…from since days of King Karanus, the first King of Macedon. Macedonian-Identity thrives on Hellenic reputation – FYRoM cannot match those expectations nor live up to that reputation.

    Greeks ask that FYRoM distinguish itself from the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon, and Yugoslavs distinguish themselves from Macedonians…in such a way as to enable observers and the outside world to differentiate Greeks from Slavs, Macedonians from Yugoslavs, Haemus-Hellene from South-Slav. FYRoM cannot exist as ‘The Republic of Macedonia’- that name belongs in Greek domain and Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage

  20. The rights of native indigenous autochthonous population groups are protected under UN charter. The UN recognizes the rights of Macedonians. Macedonians have right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their Haemus-Hellenic ancestors…

    …FYRoM deprives Macedonians from keeping the Macedonian Name in the Greek domain and Macedonian-Identity to Greek heritage.

    Nobody of worth, political diplomatic or academic, places the rights of FYRoM above the rights of Macedonians wanting to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional-historical, Haemus-Hellenic ancestors.

    Think about that for a moment!

    FYRoM is Paeonia – If the Yugoslavs there claim native indigenous autochthonous rights…the UN shall recognize them as Paeonians, and then Dardanians north from Skopje. Macedonians have always been a Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples from since the days of King Karanus, the first King of Macedon, 778-808BC.

  21. Blurring the distinction between (i) Macedonia and Paeonia,(ii) Macedonians from Yugoslavs,(iii) Haemus-Hellene from South-Slav, contributes to the erosion of Western Civil Societies common understandings in shared common heritage…the fabric from which the West wove it’s cloth, the glue that binds Western democracies to adhere to common Civilizational Principles.

    Erode the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative. Erode the Wests cultural-historical heritage. Erode Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage, now sit back and watch the Western worlds cultural-foundation crumble.

    FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic. The West Owes FYRoM Nothing – The West Owes Macedonians a great deal. Macedonians deserve respect…for their contributions to development of Western Civilization.

  22. Macedonia: The Compromise

    The compromise must conclude in definative way the name-dispute with Greece, which is now in the early years of it’s third decade still unresolved. Greece holds the moral and ethical high-ground on the matter, evidenced in political support and academic support…placing the onus on FYRoM to compromise. It has been this way from since 2009. FYRoM is advised year on year to compromise. The UN, EU, USA, NATO and the International Academic Community support Greece and continuously advise FYRoM to compromise in order to end the name dispute.

    The compromise is for FYRoM to achieve. No compromise, No EU. No compromise, No NATO. No compromise, No future…Just isolation! FYRoM has big life-changing decision to make. Continued pretensions at political government level is no longer option for FYRoM. The Greek position remains steadfast – The Macedonian Name belongs in Greek Domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage. Macedonians have right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. Nobody of worth, political diplomatic or academic places the rights of FYRoM above the rights of Macedonians wanting to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional-historical ancestors. It takes a special kind of anti-Hellenic drongo imbecile to see FYRoM like Macedonia, and ex-Yugoslavians like Macedonians. Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. There are no other Macedonians above these Greek ones.

    The compromise when it comes, shall be initiated by FYRoM. The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in order to end the long-running name-dispute with Greece over the usage of the Macedonian name which FYRoM believes it can use for Country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity as a matter of right. The Greek position has remained constant and steadfast. The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain and Macedonian-identity belongs to Greek heritage. Both factors are primordial to Hellenism – South-Slavs cannot use Macedonian name for ethnic-racial identity, or associate Hellenic Identity factors with Slavdom, in any way shape or form.

    The compromise is long overdue. For long time, FYRoM holds out for saviour event, a salvation event that will change things in it’s favour…that is not going to happen. FYRoM must compromise. FYRoM must compromise to end the pretenseless stance it has adopted from since 2009. FYRoM cannot exist like Republic of Macedonia. The rights of FYRoM do not supercede the rights of Macedonians wanting to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. South-Slavs cannot be Macedonian in ethnic-racial sense…nor cultural-linguistic sense.

    Macedonia(n)- The Name, Identity, History, Heritage, Legacy…All Greek. FYRoM has no choice but to compromise, to distinguish itself from the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon.

  23. FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic same like Slovenians, Serbians, Croatians and Bulgarians…this collective forms Southern-branch of Slavdom. There was never, in the recorded history of the Slavs, a Macedonian tribe of Slavs. Macedonians belong to Hellenic collective, with religious affiliations, fraternal kinship ties and blood connections towards Hellenism and other Greeks. So those who see FYRoM like Macedonia and ex-Yugoslavians like Macedonians, are by nature, anti-Hellenic, anti-Western by extension. Those who see Paeonia like Macedonia are void of geographic and historical knowledge. Those who see ex-Yugoslavians like Macedonians see them that way through anti-Hellenic eyes. Those who see Macedonian things in FYRoM and see Macedonian things on Yugoslavians, have issues with Greeks, geography, history and demography.

    I say again: FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic…on the other hand, Macedonians have always been a Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples from since >3 Millenniums. The Western world owes them respect! The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon and Macedonians contributed greatly towards development of Western Civilizational Principles. FYRoM and the Yugoslavians that live there contributed nothing! Only anti-Hellenic drongo imbeciles dare to see FYRoM like Macedonia and dare to speak their mind on the subject. Nobody of worth, political diplomatic or academic places the rights of FYRoM above the rights of Macedonians wanting to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors.

    FYRoM has no right, historical or cultural, to take-on the name and identity of a Hellenic people-group. South-Slavs have their own primordial tribal names. FYRoM could pick and chose any number of Slavic names for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. The Macedonian name they cannot have without distinction. The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage. Those who deny these things are anti-Hellenic at heart, anti-Western by default, because they blur the distinction between Macedonians and Yugoslavians and deprive Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage.

  24. Two John Smiths could live in peace, side by side next door to each other, but if one John Smith decides to paint his house the same as the other John Smiths house…claim his lineage and take on his Identity – What should John Smith do ?

    In the context of the Name-dispute between FYRoM and Greece – What should Greece do with FYRoM taking on Macedonian Identity when Macedonian Identity is far too rooted in Hellenism to be contested,

    FYRoM is not Greek enough to have Macedonian name attributed to Yugoslavians on ethnic level and in cultural-linguistic sense. FYRoM is simply far too rooted in Slavdom to take-on the name of an ancient and archiac, regional-historical, Haemus-Hellenic people-group. Macedonia is simply too Greek a name for FYRoM to covet.

    So, what to do ?

  25. I modestly believe that a lot of issues are utterly blended or mixed to create confussion and that makes things complicated. Therefore, some order on the discussion is of essence to understand what is the real issue here.
    FYROM (official UN name) not only (constitutionally) uses the identical name of a well defined region of the Hellenic Republic called Macedonia which if it was the sole problem would have had a rational solution but uses also its historical symbols, historical personalities, history itself, heritage etc. FYROM issues officially and unofficially maps, historical propaganda through piloted “research” and school level propaganda to impose historically, anthropologically and socially the concept of a Macedonian Nation and country that should be independent and geographically contain 2/3 of its entire “future” territory on the expense of other modern states (Kosovation of the problem) in the Balkans with the lion’s share found in Hellenic Territory and specifically were Ancient Macedonia started as a Hellenic Kingdom and expanded through conquest. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg/800px-ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg.
    Archaeologically there isn’t even the slightest doubt among accredited Historians, Researchers and Archaeologists of the Hellenic origins and history of ancient Macedonia and ancient Macedonians and therefore I won’t spent even one word because it would be banal and sterile for the discussion. There are tons of historical evidence that anyone can spend long time to study. So why to implicate such factual issue (history) in the whole discussion that regards the desire of a modern state to assume the name Macedonia? to what end and real profit? This issue started in 1946 when the World was divided in a communist world and anti-communist world where Tito’s Yugoslavia was found in the first block and Greece was found in the other. The expansionist politics of that epoch brought a lot of new propaganda and historical revisionism that had the scope to expand the Yugoslavian territory to the Aegean Sea and the reflected result of that attempt is what we are unfortunately confronted today especially after the disintegration of Yugoslavia in new states. The Tito epoch has passed but he left behind his legacy and the “historical” nonsence (not only for Macedonia but also for other areas in the Balkans) we see today with all the nationalistic desperate search of a national-historical identity. According to my opinion, FYROM must renounce all these “historical” revisionist process that brings only confusion and additional problems and remain to the name issue (as also established by the international institutions and the UN) through legal (not political) solution to the name without any or further pretension or claim.

  26. What becomes of the West when FYRoM version of history is superimposed over long-established mainstream version. The future history of the West would include FYRoM Yugoslavians talking the place of Hellenic Macedonians. The West would owe FYRoM Yugoslavians for contributing towards Western worlds cultural foundation – Think about that for a moment!

    It cannot be allowed, on the basis…

    FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic…the evidence for that is Overwhelming. Macedonia on the other hand, is Hellenic – the evidence for that is equally Overwhelming. Confusing FYRoM for Macedonia and Mistaking Yugoslavians for Macedonians shows disgraceful ignorance of the aforementioned facts. Those who see Paeonia like Macedonia and South-Slavs like Macedonians are anti-Hellenic at heart and anti-Western be default. Macedonians contributed greatly towards development of (i) Western worlds cultural-foundation, (ii) Western worlds civilizational principles, and (iii) Western civil-societies common understandings of shared common heritage. Blurring the distinction between Yugoslavians and Macedonians intentionally, is anti-Hellenic act, anti-Western by extension.

    FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic. Those who see FYRoM differently have Macedonians to contend with. Nobody of worth, political diplomatic or academic place the rights of FYRoM above the rights of Macedonians wanting to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of the regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. Those who see Macedonians being something different from Hellenic have those realms to contend with. Those who championed to have FYRoM established as NoN-Greek Macedonian Nation long abandoned that cause in the face of strong academic arguments pitting historical-cohesion against political-expediancies. The Western worlds cultural and historical narrative depends on Macedon being ancient-Greek Kingdom and Macedonians being Centum Greek-speakers affiliating to Hellenism, the culture and religious beliefs of the Greeks.

    FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic. Recognition of FYRoM to ‘Republic of Macedonia’ back in November 2004 was anti-Hellenic act, anti-Western by extension. Those who issued poor-quality, academicallay-flawed, politically-charged advice to GW Bush, the President of the United States of America at the time, left us a legacy manifested in a Name-Dispute now in the early years of it’s third decade. On their advice do we find ourselves in this situation. Recognition empowered FYRoM to script itself a National-historical narrative that made Macedonians Proto-Slavs and Alexander the Great Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs. A minor Slavic statelet was allowed to challenge the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative being championed by 5th columnist mind-architects that infiltrated highest echelons of Bush administration. FYRoM uspet the applecart, the West lost it’s way…FYRoM nearly destroyed Western worlds cultural-historical foundation, the basis on which Western Civil Society base common heritage.

    FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic – The evidence for that is Overwhelming. The West did lose it’s way but is focused back now on the important things. Names, Identities, Culture, History, Heritage, Legacy…these are the important things that bind Western Civil Societies subscription to common vision based on common heritage. Heritage based on Hellenic Ideals and Core values. Heritage based on Greco-Roman Wisdom and Jurisdicition, in that order. What becomes of the West, if FYRoM Yugoslavians were permitted to take the place of Hellenic Macedonians in revised rewritten future FYRoM friendly cultural-historical narrative

  27. So the peoples of FYRoM learn to see themselves like Macedonians. They learn to see their land like Macedonia and their language like Macedonian-language. In reality though, FYRoM is Paeonia geographically, Dardania north from Skopje. The peoples there are Yugoslavians, same like Slovenians, Serbians, Croatians and Bulgarians. The language spoken there is Serbo-Bulgarian, a Satem-Slavic concoction renamed Macedonian-language August 1944, on the will of Marshall Tito, Croatian dictator of Wartime Yugoslavia.

    It is important to say here that not all of the peoples of FYRoM see themselves that way. A large percentage of them see themselves differently – so there is a problem of perception, inwardly and outwardly.

    Inwardly: Minorities in FYRoM see the majority there like South-Slavs from Serbian and Bulgarian stock, and call them the same.

    Outwardly: Those who see FYRoM like Macedonia, Yugoslavians like Macedonians, their Satem-Slavic language like Macedonian-language…display an ignorance deficient of knowledge in the fields of geography, demography, history and linguistics.

    FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic. Yugoslavians and Bulgarians form Slavdoms southern-branch…confusing South-Slavs for Macedonians displays disgraceful ignorance of classicist Graeco-Roman history, a mischievous deviancy from mainstream preset academic reference-point.

    If the peoples of FYRoM in their majority wish to see themselves like Macedonians, their country like Macedonia and their language like Macedonian-language – that, is for them to decide, it is their perogative to see themselves that way…self-perception is private and individual. The problems begin when that image, that self-perception is screened on world-stage setting.

    When a peoples are that indoctrinated to see themselves in way that clashes and conflicts with the way the outside world see them, like the UN, EU, USA, NATO and the International Academic Community – It becomes duty for these worldy-wise bodies and institutions to set the record straight…Macedonia is northern-Greece, Macedonians are Centum Greek-speakers and Macedonian-language is Centum-Hellenic language. The way Greeks see themselves is the way others see them, no clashes no conflicts. Contemporary Greeks look back at themselves standing at forefront of long chain of Centum Greek-speakers.

    Todays Greeks see themselves like cultural-linguistic continuators of a Hellenic inheritance that has been passed-on to them from previous generations of Greeks…stretching all the way back to and from, Mycaenean Proto-Greeks. The Greek language and Hellenism define an ancient and archaic people-group that boasts autochthony to Haemus peninsula. Greek cultural-linguistic space can Hellenize peoples in it’s sphere of influence. From Crete in the south to Macedonia in the north, and from Cyprus in the east to Sicily in the west…that space in between is Greek cultural-linguistic sphere – from since millenia. Greeks look back at themselves and awe at their inheritance.

    Greeks promise to defend, protect and pass-on their inheritance to next generation of Greeks – Come Hell or High Water!

  28. FYRoM cannot disengage from Slavdom easily, in order to develop Hellenic-like Identity without tacit approval from Slavic collective.

    In order to free itself from shackles of Slavdom, FYRoM must first declare formal willingness to do so, in the form of Memorandum of Understanding.

    Keeping FYRoM shackled into a collective it feels uncomfortable in, ultimately serves no purpose. Ejecting FYRoM from Slavdom might enable this newly established country to find it’s way in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula, and ultimately, the world. Slavdom could help in that process. If FYRoM feels more comfortable sporting Hellenic-Identity, Slavdom should appreciate that.

    The peoples of FYRoM harbour ethnic-feelings different from Slavdoms paternal-ethnicity…they hold-on to collective memories embedded in Hellenic themes and synergies – their subconcious-self contrasts with the way others see them. Slavdom cannot stand idly-by watching the peoples of FYRoM mix and match Hellenic things with Slavic things – Slavdom must set the record straight.

    If FYRoM is Slavic, then why do the peoples there see themselves like Macedonians ? This deserves explanation only Slavdom could give!

    Between Slavdom and Hellenism stands FYRoM – a newly established country confused about which side of the fence it sees itself. Reluctant-Slavs…Disloyal-Greeks, is not a position to take FYRoM forward. For FYRoM to go forward, it must decide which path to follow, Slavic or Hellenic. The two do not mix easily where history is concerned.

    The Haemus [Greek] peninsula is crying out to revert back to it’s primordial roots ethno-oringins…the peoples there belong to an ethnogenic substratum that is closer to ancient-Greek than ancient-Slav. The evidence is in the morphology of the peoples. Haemus Slavic-speakers differ from Russian-Slavs and Polish-Slavs, they look more like Stavros the Greek than Boris the Slav.

    FYRoM is on Re-Hellenization path, evidenced in the street furniture there, but the real future of FYRoM depends on Slavdom keeping, or ejecting, this fledgling, recently established country from it’s collective.

    Universal formula governing ethnicity: I belong to an ethnic-group if I want it…based on acceptance from ethnic-host people-group. If I walk like Macedonian and talk like Macedonian, and if Macedonians accept me – then I am Macedonian. If I do what Greeks do, 8 generations onwards, [duration of assimalation process] Greeks would accept those after me, as their own. Greeks have been Hellenizing NoN-Greeks for Millennia.

  29. Macedonia: A modern-day Solomons Tale

    The name-dispute between FYRoM and Greece can be likened to a modern-day Solomons Tale, where two Mother’s stake claim to one child and King Solomon has to Judge…to which Mother should that child belong.

    Matthew Nimetz then, becomes modern-day equivalent of King Solomon. The UN mediator appointed to assist both countries find a mutually acceptable solution has to balance FYRoM’s Nation-building efforts against the concerns of the Hellenic Republic. His judgment on the matter is still pending, even after more than two decades spent weighing-up the variables against all the available facts.

    A resolution to the name-dispute shall earn Matthew Nimetz a feather in his cap, on the basis, a definative conclusion to the problem fascilitates FYRoM’s entry into the Western worlds most prestigious economic and security structures of the EU and Nato.

    Question: If You were a modern day King Solomon, in who’s favour would you judge…?

  30. FYRoM Yugoslavians insist they are Macedonian, on the basis, they live in Macedonia and speak Macedonian. If I live in Macedonia and speak Macedonian then I am Macedonian goes the logic behind their thinking. If my country is called Macedonia then my nationality is Macedonian, because country-name generates nationality. If my language is called Macedonian-language, then my ethnicity is Macedonian, because language name generates ethnicity – goes the same logic behind FYRoM Yugoslavians mode of thinking.

    It must be stressed here that Macedonians are a regional-historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock…from since the days of King Karanus, the first King of Macedon 778-808 BC.

    The Macedonian name on South-Slavs blurs the distinction between Yugoslavians and Macedonians…the former belong to Slavdom – the latter belong to Hellenism.

    Confusing FYRoM for Macedonia intentionally, shows disgraceful ignorance of geography and history. Mistaking Yugoslavians for Macedonians on ethnic level and cultural-linguistic level exposes a mischievous deviancy that is anti-Hellenic at heart and anti-Western by extension.

    The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain – Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage…these are historical-facts, prefixed academic reference-points.

    FYRoM denies Macedonians were Greek in the first place and deprives contemporary Greek-speaking Macedonians from practicing their rights. Macedonians have right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. FYRoM covets the Macedonian name for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language, ethnicity, and scripts national historical narrative that erases Macedonian Hellenic-Identity. Yugoslavian children in FYRoM learn different history from the Western mainstream. Ancient-Macedonians in FYRoM history books are Proto-Slavic and Alexander the Great becomes Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs.

    Those who see FYRoM like Macedonia are anti-Hellenic at heart. Those who see Yugoslavians like Macedonians are anti-Western by default. The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon contributed greatly towards Western worlds cultural-foundation…FYRoM did not. Macedonians contributed heavily towards developing Western worlds civilizational principles…Yugoslavians did not.

    Greeks can deal with anti-Hellenic drongo imbeciles. It takes the West though, to deal with anti-Western 5th columnists that fight hard to establish a NoN-Greek Macedonian nation with ready history and heritage bismerched from Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative. In that narrative Macedonians are Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples with affiliations and kinship ties towards Hellenism and other Greeks.

    Those who champion to see FYRoM established to ‘Republic of Macedonia’ are no friend to Greece nor Greeks…they shall be deal with, accordingly!

  31. Macedonia:Name Dispute at Deeper Level

    If the measure of ethnicity is calculated in feelings, then Macedonians are passionate Greeks from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC. Ethnicity is manipulative concept, something learned under strict authoritarian conditions or not – Collective memory is quite different.

    If FYRoM South-Slavs hold-on to collective-memories rooted in ancient-Hellenic themes and synergies – these things need to be explored to deeper level.

    E1b1b J2 Slavs: How Slavic can they be in comparison to Russian-Slavs and Polish-Slavs ?

    Macedonians are Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples – this is what Archaelogy and History teach us. Both academic disciplines support Greek-Hellenic Identity for Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

    FYRoM is Paeonia in terms of Archaelogy Geography and History.

    In the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula, we are all genetically similar – Haemus peoples spawned from same gene-pool, same genetic stock, so why do the peoples of FYRoM reject their Paeonian roots and ethnogenic origins.

    Assuming the peoples of FYRoM are Haemus-natives self-ascribing like Macedonians – Why are they, and what are they doing in Paeonia. Paonians and Macedonians derive from common Haemus gene pool…the latter Hellenized by the former, in that order.

    Macedonians Hellenized the Paonians in 217 BC under King Philip V. By Identifying morfe with Macedonians, moreso than with Paeonians, the peoples of FYRoM are indirectly telling the world they are Greeks originally.

    I say again: If the peoples of FYRoM are native to the Haemus peninsula. Never moved, never shifted from where they are today – that makes them Paeonians, and not the Macedonians they want to be. Paeonians like the rest of the Haemus natives sprang from common gene pool, equally as ancient as the Macedonians sharing similar genes and haplogroups but differing on cultural-linguistic lines…until Hellenization.

    FYRoM is Paeonia…a Haemus peoples. Hellenized – Romanized – Bulgarized – Slavicized – Turkified, now searching for Identity rooted in antiquity. The
    options for them are many but the choices are rather limited.

  32. The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain…Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage – FYRoM South-Slavs disagree with these historical facts, these academic reference-points.

    Yugoslavian peoples covet the Macedonian name for Country-name…Sovereign state-name, Nationality, Language and Ethnicity – Identity factors that do not bode well for South-Slavs. There was never a Macedonian tribe of Slavs in the recorded history of the Slavonic peoples.

    Inside Federal Yugoslavia, Communism reigned. Vardaska-Banovina renames to Socialist Republic of Makedonija on will and demands of ruling Communist elite. FYRoM was ‘Peoples Republic’ then ‘Socialist Republic’ in Old-Yugoslavia, a Communist invention, invented by Croat Marshall Tito in 1945 to compliment creation of FYRoM language just one year earlier, in Autumn of 1944. A Slavic entity SRoM cacooned inside Federal Yugoslavia posed no problem Greece or Greeks, until disintigration of Yugoslavia. From since 1991, when FYRoM steps onto world-stage, they challenge Greece and Greeks on History, Heritage and Legacy of ancient-Macedon, the Greek-Kingdom ruled over by Alexander the Great.

    Yugoslavian children post 1991, learn to use Macedonian name for Country-name, Nationality, Language and Ethnicity. The same believe they are descended from ancient-Macedonians. They see Greece like Western invention, created by West to cheat Slavic race from it’s true history and heritage in Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Greeks for them become Ethiopians, Greece becomes the enemy and Hellenism becomes loaded word beyond hate.

    This is what Recognition [November 2004] did, to the children pupils and students of FYRoM. They took recognition to mean the West was punishing Greeks for crimes against Slavs of FYRoM…from since Balkan Wars 1 and 2.

    GW Bush, November 2004, just hours into his second term, is issued substandard poor-quality academically-flawed advice…politically-charged advice to recognize FYRoM like ‘Republic of Macedonia’ – against Academia and against Greek concerns. The West Dumps on the Greeks to establish NoN-Greek Macedonian Nation peopled by South-Slavs, Albanians and other minorities.

    That ill-judged, ill thought-out advice, cost the West dearly. It pitted Scholars and Academics against Politicians and Diplomats. It pitted long-established prefixed historical-facts and academic-reference-points against Political-Expediances. Anti-Hellenic, anti-Western 5th Columnist Mind-Architects working in positions of power and influence, at highest echelons of diplomatic office nearly destroyed the Western worlds cultural-historical foundation. In Western worlds cultural-historical narrative…Macedonians are Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples – not Satem Slavic-speaking South-Slavs from Yugoslavia.

    The West lost it’s way…damaged, but not beyond repair! FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic. FYRoM cannot exist like ‘Republic of Macedonia’ on that basis. Macedonians are Greek from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC – Only drongo anti-Hellenic imbeciles dare to contest it.

  33. Macedonia:Name Dispute at Even Deeper Level.

    Hellenes and the Centum-Greek language exist in Haemus-peninsula for Millennia. Modern-Greeks boast continuity to both. Todays Greeks are the closest modern humans to the ancient-Greeks. Nobody on this Planet is closer. Greeks look back at themselves standing at the forefront of long chain of Greek-speakers…streatching all the way back to Mycaenean Proto-Greeks. Todays Greeks get their Heritage from Greco-Roman Byzantines. The Byzantine Eastern-Romans got theirs from the ancient-Hellenes. Ancient-Hellenes got their heritage from Mycaenean Proto-Greeks. Modern-Greeks connect in fragmented way to first-Greeks. Continuity always follows path of least resistance. No other modern-peoples connect to ancient-Greeks the way modern-Greeks do.

    FYRoM connects to Paeonia geographically. South-Slavs there connect to Slavic tribes, Draguvites, Sagudates, Birzetes etc, settlers who made the Haemus peninsula their home top-end of 6th Century AD. FYRoM is Slavic – The closest Slavic peoples next to Greeks. After 1400 years living next to each other, intermingling, we are more closer than we think or care to mention. Cross-fertilization [[ by force ][ by free will ]] between Northern-Greeks and Southern-Slavs is a given. Hellenized-Slavs, Slavicized-Greeks exist, unsubstantiated though, in numbers, census data, or demographic records. Slavic-speakers affiliate to the Exarchate of Bulgaria. Greek-speakers affiliate to Patriarchate of Constantinople. The seperation process was initiated by Slavs. A Slavic Idea based on the resurrection of Bulgaria Nation State with revival of Bulgarian Exarchate in mind, 1860 onwards!

    FYRoM South-Slavs, the closest Slavs to Greeks, boasting ethnic-feelings towards Macedonia and Macedonians, harbouring collective-memories rooted in ancient-Hellenic themes and synergies, are entirely understandable, given the context and back-drop from which they derive. But still, even with that kind of self-conscious Identity, they are not Greek enough to be the Macedonians they want to be. They cannot be Macedonian in Greek sense of that word.

    FYRoM South-Slavs…the closest Slavs to Greeks, blur the distinction between Yugoslavians and Macedonians, in hostile way, anti-Hellenic fashion. FYRoM is not Hellenic-friendly.
    From since they stepped onto the world-stage, they alienated whole Nation of Hellenes plus Greek diaspora, a proud people-group with history and heritage numbering approximately 20 Millions. Greek history is not to be messed with the way FYRoM messes with it. The Macedonian name sprang from Centum Greek-speakers. Macedonian-Identity forged and cast in Hellenic mould. The Name, Identity, History, Heritage, Legacy – All Greek.

    With heritage like this the Hellenic Republic is morally and legally obliged to protect it. Greeks see themselves as continuators of a language, culture and way of life started by first Greeks. Dare to Mess with that!

  34. Macedonia:FYRoM Could End Name Dispute Today

    Denying the Macedonian-name it’s Greek-Hellenic credentials is the sole reason, the name-dispute between FYRoM and Greece has dragged-on for >2 decades. The UN, EU, USA, NATO and the International academic community place the Onus on FYRoM to end the name-dispute in a way that is mutually acceptable to both parties. The Onus is on FYRoM compromise, to find a proper more suitable name for country-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

    FYRoM could end the name-dispute today, in an instant, at a stroke…if the ruling elite there recognized Alexander the Great as the Greek-King of Macedon and the ancient-Macedonians as Greek-speakers, with affinities and kinship-ties towards Greeks and Hellenism.

    FYRoM could end the name-dispute today, in an instant and at a stroke, if politicians there recognized the Macedonian-name as Greek-name, originating in Hellenic-world by Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples

    FYRoM could end the name-dispute today, in an instant and at a stroke, if the government there recognized and acknowledged, the Greek-Hellenic Identity of Macedonians from since the days of King-Karanus, 778-808 BC.

    FYRoM denies the Macedonians were ever Greek in the first place, they teach a revisionist pseudo-historical narrative to their own children, pupils and students. In the history books there, Alexander the Great becomes Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs and ancient-Macedonians become proto-Slavs who spoke a Satem-Slavic, Serbianized-Bulgarian language FYRoM Slavs call Macedonian-language.

    FYRoM denies Macedonians were Greek to begin with, denies they spoke Centum Hellenic-language, denies they had strong kinship-ties and affiliations towards other Greeks and Hellenism, and denies, that Macedonians themselves self-Identified and self-determined Greek, from Dorian-Hellenic stock.

    FYRoM erases Macedonians Greek-Hellenic Identity in order to superimpose quasi-experimental Slavic-Identity on top of original Greek one. They do these things in bad taste, under crude and crass conditions, in ways that clash and conflict with all that is known about Macedonia…that Macedonians are self-determined Greeks from since >3 Millenniums.

    FYRoM could end the name-dispute today, right now, in an instant and at a stroke…if the politicians there stopped the pretense and the theatrical silliness that goes with promoting a quasi-experimental Slavic-Identity that takes from Hellenism something the Greeks are not willing to relinquish. If a Greek-Hellenic peoples have self-Identified like Macedonians for more than 3 Milleniums, should FYRoM respect that – You decide ?

    Those who know about Macedonia know: Macedonians have always been Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples from since the days of King-Karanus 808-778 BC – a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock. Time for FYRoM to catch up!

  35. When ones subconcious-Identity differs from the paternal-Identity of their ancestors – what medical term best describes such a condition…disociative-Identity disorder, perhaps!

    If I think of myself like Macedonian, descendant from Macedonians of old…but others around me, see me like South-Slav, descended from Slavic-tribes that settled Greek [Haemus] peninsula at top-end of 6th Century AD, what best describes me – the way I see myself, or the way others see me ?

    If I see myself like Macedonian, similar to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity, but others around me see me like South-Slav, similar to Slovenians, Serbians, Croatians, Montenegrins and Bulgarians – How should third parties react to such a predicament ?

    If I see myself like Macedonian, living in Macedonia, speaking Macedonian…but others around me, see me like Bulgarian, living in Paeonia, speaking west-dialect of Bulgarian – In who’s reality should I adjust dimension!

    When those around me, and those around them, outwardly see me like South-Slav…when I myself, see my inner subconscious-self like Macedonian – in who’s reality should I adjust!

    When my inner subconscious-self image differs from the outward image others see me by…what medical-term best describes such a iatrogenic condition – Persoanlity disorder, perhaps!

    Whoever sees Yugoslavians like Macedonians, Paeonia like Macedonia, is deficient in geographic knowledge, demographic knowledge and historical knowledge…and suffers from same condition as FYRoM – Identity Crisis!

  36. The more inside themselves they retreat, the more they find to confuse them. Delving into their recent past, the peoples of FYRoM group with South-Slavs…Bulgarians to be the nearest. Not impressed with that, they brush away any notion of relatedness to them to delve further back to a time before the Bulgars, before the Slavs even – to pre-Bulgar times and pre-Slavic times.

    The more inside themselves they delve, the more they find confusing. Like, why do they speak Bulgarian but call their own language Macedonian-language…like why do they group with South-Slavs but call themselves Macedonians. Macedonians are Haemus native whilst Bulgars and South-Slavs are not. This is confusing, even to the scholars of genes, languages and people-dynamics.

    The more inside themselves they retreat, the more they find to confuse themselves. You see, before the Bulgars came to the Haemus, there was only Byzantium…and before the Slavs, the same. Pre-Bulgar times were times when Greek-speakers called themselves Romioi, Eastern-Romans. Pre-Slavic times, the same. The language FYRoM used before the Bulgars came, and before the Slavs came, was Centum-Greek.

    The more they investigate themselves…like delve more into the makings of their Name, their Identity, their Nationality, their Language, their Ethnicity, their History, their Heritage – The mist of confusion clears to reveal the real reason for their being – to take Macedonia for Slavdom. When they delve hard, back enough, they find that the Idea to create Macedonians from South-Slavs was born during imperialistic Tzarist times, then the Idea migrated to the Pan-Slavic era, migrated again to the Communist era, when a Croat Slav created for the first ever, Macedonia in the Slavic world. Then Serbs Serbianized the Bulgarian-language and called it Macedonian-language. The Slovenes, Montenegrins, Bulgarians and the rest, accepted the creation of a Macedonian people-group within Slavdom. For the duration of the Cold War era, the Idea lay dormant until Communism dies. The Idea resurfaces again with a vengeance when Yugoslavia expires spawning 6 new Republics from one Yugoslavic Federation.

    The more FYRoM delves into the makings of it’s existence, the more they find out, they are not Macedonians at all…at least, not in the Greek sense of that word! FYRoM South-Slavs cannot be Macedonians, the same Macedonians that exist in the Greek [Haemus] peninsula from since the days of King Karanus, first King of Macedon 778-808 BC. A distinction is required to differentiate between Slavic-Macedonians and Hellenic-Macedonians – This is what Greece asks for, some clarification to waylay the opportunism and to quell the confusion.

  37. Macedonia:The Future History of the Haemus [Greek] Peninsula

    History wont be kind to FYRoM. Historians shall tell the FYRoM story from anti-Hellenic, anti-Western perspectives. History shall record FYRoM as that minor Slavic country that when acquired independence, briefly posed a cultural threat to the Western worlds cultural foundation and historical narrative. The concise history of FYRoM will plot it’s beginnings from Paeonia to Vardaska, to latest current name, Republic of Macedonia.

    Demography wont be kind to FYRoM. Demographers shall tell the FYRoM story from anti-Hellenic, anti-Western perspectives. Demography shall record that minor Slavic country FYRoM was once, the autochthnous Haemus Kingdom of Paeonia. Paeonians were Hellenized on interaction with Macedonians, forever looked upon as brother-peoples to Greeks going forward, until the Slavs settled the Haemus, 6th Century AD.

    Philology wont be kind to FYRoM. Philologists shall tell the FYRoM story from anti-Hellenic, anti-Western perspectives. Philology shall record FYRoM as that minor Slavic country that when established independence, scripted itself a national historical narrative that was so anti, so anti-Hellenic, so anti-mainstream, it posed a cultural threat to the long-established mainstream historical narrative of the West.

    The FYRoM story is double-edged in that it exposed 2 root sources from whence anti-Hellenic, anti-Western propaganda emanated…one internal and western, the other one
    external, non-western. No more shall be said here because both sources have been compromised. Nobody of worth, from politics or the media talks about Greeks, Greece or Hellenism in negative tone the way they used to, like in the frenzy days of heightened anti-Hellenic activity. Both sources have been squelched. One has disbanded, and the other one gone underground. The point to make here is this one: FYRoM was used by both to discredit Greeks in order to undermine Hellenism. Anti-Hellenic 5th columnist mind-architects, in positions of power and influence attempt to elevate Celto-Germanic history, given new Europe a historical starting point from 8th Century AD. The age of enlightenment was to begin from common European ancestor Karalos Magnos, not from the ancient Greeks or Romans.

    The most noteworthy observations to take from all of this, is this one: FYRoM’s most potent virulent propaganda against Greeks, Greece and Hellenism, here I mean the academic supplementary materials, were not written by homegrown FYRoM South-Slavs themselves, nor their diasporas…Black Athena is prime example, Paleolithic Continuity Theory is another example, Veneti Builders of Europe is yet another example. Remember this, Afrocentric Theories, Turanid Theories and Slavist Theories, timely published to bismerch and undermine Hellenic cultural contributions to world history were not written by Africans, Turkics or Slavics – The authors belong to other ethnes, they belong to those 2 root sources listed [4th paragraph] above.

    Those who aided minor Slavic country FYRoM, to spread propaganda against Greece did it for higher ulterior motive. So the FYRoM story is sad story, one of being used and abused. The FYRoM cause is spent, there is no more use for FYRoM anymore. Greeks successfully thwarted each and every attempt to rubbish their history. Friends of Greeks, Phil-Hellenes and Grecophiles successfully defended Hellenism, Hellenic cultural contributions to development of Western society. Every anti-Hellenic action invokes reaction, until the next one.

  38. Macedonia:Peopled Haemus-Hellenic Natives

    Haemus natives are recognizable by the genes they carry. E1b1b and J2 are neolithic markers who’s subclades mutated unique features in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. It must be stressed though…genetic markers denote origins only, not ethnicity! Ethnicity is difficult subject to discuss, something cultural, something that is learned under strict authoritarian control or not.

    If the peoples of the Haemus [Greek] peninsula derive from same gene pool…what is it that makes them Greek. To know that requires extensive backround knowledge on them.

    Greeks, since the beginning, have been a seafaring international-peoples. Consequently, Greeks met and intermingled with a great variety of foreign peoples.

    Greeks are said to be ‘cousins’ to a great variety of other peoples.

    The Greek character having formed over millennia, can be summarized as being multi-layered and multifaceted. Most people see Greek-peoples like Mediterraneans, but there is more.

    Mediterranean: Greeks could be clustered together with Italians, Maltese, Spaniards, Portuguese, and to a lesser extent, the French…within the framework of a Greater Greaco-Roman Mediterranean civilization.

    Western European: Since, in the West, Greece is considered to be the cradle of Western civilization.

    Eastern European: Since Greece is situated there and Greeks Baptized, Christianized and Civilized the Slavic-Tribes to Greek Orthodox Christendom, the religion of Byzantium, the Eastern-Roman Empire.

    Middle-Eastern: Since Greek expansion into Asia-Minor and beyond, ensured prolonged ties with Eastern Cultures and Oriental ones.

    Balkanian: Greeks are not comfortable with this Turkic term.
    Greeks prefer Haemus-Native instead. Anyway, a Balkanian Identity similar to that of Albanians, Serbians, Croatians, Montinegrins, Slovenians, Bulgarians, FYRoMians, Romanians, does exist. There are common elements, contributions from the Eastern Roman Empire, and from the Ottoman Empire. Shared common cultural themes, manerisms, morphology, and folkloric synergies bear testament to long-time exposure between like-minded people-groups.

    Greeks have always been an International Peoples, since time immemorial. The Greek Character is multi-layered and multifaceted, drawing in embedded experiences from five different geographical locations.

    Greeks were never restricted to one particular country, there were no countries with fixed border’s in ancient times.

    Greece in ancient times could be visualized spanning from Spain in the West to Georgia in the East.

    There was never a country called Greece in ancient times. Instead, there were many Greeks inhabiting many regions in Evropi and beyond.

  39. There are no better examples than the FYRoM example, that best illustrate the problems faced by a peoples cultured on way of life collective-memories do their utmost to erase. FYRoM is cultured on Slavdom but harbours collective-memories rooted in Hellenism.

    People dynamics dictate: Peoples absorbed by another peoples, change speech and culture but retain collective-memory. In FYRoM live E1b1b J2 Haemus natives who may, or may not, have been Greek-speakers affiliating to Hellenism, the host culture of the Haemus peninsula, Pre-Slavic times.

    In the Haemus [Greek] peninsula we are all Greek to some degree, some more than others. In the Haemus exists Albanophones, Slavophones, Vlachophones etc. They can be Haemus-peoples on genetic dynamic speaking language(s) different to Centum-Greek…that does not exclude them from claiming native indigenous status. E1b1b J2 haplogroups mutated subclades unique to the Haemus-peninsula, those found carrying them can boast native origin.

    If we, Haemus-peoples, stem from same common Haemus gene-pool, then Greeks have it about right when they distinguish peoples there solely on the phonetic dynamic. Same genous, different speech…this is the Greek way of describing Haemus-peoples with native origin.

    NoN-Greek speakers espousing ethnic-feelings and national-pride for Greece and Hellenism should have the right to express themselves. Speaking a language that is different from Centum-Greek does not exclude Haemus-peoples from holding on to collective-memories that are deep-rooted in the myths and legends of the Hellenic world.

    Greeks have it about right then, when they consider some Albanophones, Slavophones and Vlachopones to be brothers and sisters to Greeks. Same genous, different speech…the difference is phonetic only, not genetic – same Haemus-peoples, they just happen to speak different language.

    In the Haemus [Greek] peninsula, the host culture dominated for millennia…those in closest proximity to Greeks, Hellenized willingly and voluntarily. Greeces modern neighbours could Re-Hellenize – retun back to base, back to the fold.

    In the Haemus, we are all Greek to some degree…It’s just that some of us are more Greek than others. The Haemus though, is not as Greek as it used to be, culturally and linguistically. The peninsula now, is home to peoples and languages the Greeks had to learn to live with – sometimes the hard way. Albanians, Bulgarians, FYRoMians, Serbians, Croatians, Montenegrins, Slovenians, Rumanians, Hungarians and Turks – a milieu of peoples, languages and cultures that wear the ethnogenic substratum of the Haemus quite smartly.

  40. The pre-Slavic population of FYRoM was not ancient-Macedonian but rather medieval Byzantine Greco-Roman. The Slavic-speaking peoples of FYRoM believe they connect to Alexander the Great and ancient-Macedonians, but how can that be? unless ofcourse, they mean through the Greco-Roman line through which they connect back to Northern Dorian-Greeks.

    Greece is the natural-heir legitimate-inheritor of the Imperial Byzantine Empire, the cultural inheritor of that legacy. Modern-Greeks trace their heritage and immediate ancestors back to Imperium Romanum, Romania – the Official name of the Eastern-Roman Empire. The Byzantines traced their heritage and immediate ancestors back to ancient-Greece. Ancient-Greeks traced their heritage and immediate ancesters back to Mycaenean proto-Greeks. In this way, we can see and evaluate a cultural-linguistic continuum that links modern-Greeks to previous generations of Greeks in somewhat fragmented but discernible fashion.

    It becomes difficult to include FYRoM into that matrix-continuum…unless ofcourse, we include them in the same way we do modern-Greeks. FYRoM then, connects to ancient-Macedonians through the Byzantine Greco-Roman line, but this would imply they are Slavicized-Byzantines, in which case they become partially-Greek, with only partial-rights to the ancient-Macedonian name, identity, history, heritage, and legacy – very messy, right!

    When those Slavists in FYRoM started to mess with ancient-Macedonians, they opened-up a hornets-nest of stings that keep on stinging them…a pandoras-box of conflicts and confusions that pit prefixed academic reference-points against political-expediances. In the poltical-realm FYRoM has right and entitlement to name itself ‘Republic of Macedonia’ but in the academic-realm, FYRoM’s national history clashes and conflicts with the long established mainstream historical narrative.

    The in-fighting between the academic-realm and the political-realm has led to both taking different approach, both realms decided to look at the problem from the moral-ethical point of view. A decision was reached…From since 2009, the Onus is on FYRoM to compromise, to find a proper more suitable name for country-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

    Macedonians have always been a Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples…a regional-historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock. Those who see FYRoM like Macedonia are anti-Hellenic at heart. Those who see Yugoslavians like Macedonians are anti-Western by extension.

    Now: Ask me Why ?

  41. FYRoM governed by Makedonists, politically motivated on anti-Hellenic Ideology, shall always pose a problem for Greece, for the West in general, and for the Haemus peninsula in particular.

    The problem for Greece is the name. Republic of Macedonia is not suitable name for minor Slavic country recently established, in 1991. The name has Hellenic baggage strewn across the millennia dating back to the first King of Macedon, King Karanus 778-808 BC. To contest that prefixed academic reference-point would be fatal for the challenger. Integrity and credibility come to mind.

    The problem for the West is how to integrate that minor Slavic country into Euro-Atlantic economic and security structures, under the name ‘Republic of Macedonia,’ when that minor Slavic country disputes the Western-worlds cultural-historical narrative – contests the cultural foundation on which Western Civilization is based. The ancient-Greek Kingdom of Macedon and Macedonians contributed greatly towards development of Western-worlds Civilizational Principles…FYRoM and the Yugoslavians that live there did not!

    The problem for the Haemus-Peninsula is FYRoM, a minor Slavic country recently established wanting to carve out a place for itself in a region of the world that is steeped in Greek history. FYRoM has become bone of contention between Hellenic and Slavic interests in the peninsula, and to a lesser degree, between Slavic and Turanid interests, and to even lesser degree, between Slavic and Albanian interests. Bone of contention in the classic sense of the word.

    The Name ‘Republic of Macedonia’ poses big problem for Greece. FYRoM’s National history and ethno-genesis story poses even bigger problem for the West, in that, integrating a minor Slavic country into Western economic and security structures is not impossible, what is impossible though, is integrating the FYRoM story into Western-worlds long established mainstream historical narrative. Lastly, FYRoM is classic buffer state central to milieu of cultures, languages and peoples. The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage – applying it outside the boundaries of these historical reference-points poses problems locally, regionally, and to much wider extent, at level the West is only now starting to appreciate severity of the problem

  42. Nobody in politics entertains Makedonists in FYRoM, chasing Identity demographers, philologists and historians consider to be outside the ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic boundaries of the South-Slavic people-groups they affiliate with.

    Macedonian Identity was forged and cast in the Hellenic mould >3 Millenniums ago…FYRoM Makedonists contest it! According to them, their teachings, Macedonians were Proto-Slavic peoples, different to Greeks.

    Greeks get annoyed when FYRoM South-Slavs say these things. So does the UN, EU, USA, NATO, and the International Academic Community. These worldly-wise bodies and global-institutions advise FYRoM to compromise in order to find proper more suitable name for Country-name…Sovereign-State name, Nationality, Language and Ethnicity.

    Identity once forged, stays with the people-group(s) that created it in the first place. That place was Macedon and the creators were Greek…Dorian-Greeks. Those who contest these prefixed academic reference-points have historians to contend with. Those who entertain FYRoM Makedonists to say these things, have Greeks to contend with.

    FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic…E1b1b J2 Slavic. For FYRoM, it is decision time. Time to face the reality. Slavicization does not empower the Slavicized to usurp Macedonian-Identity when Macedonians still exist in their natural Hellenic form.

    For as long as Centum-Greek speaking Macedonians exist, South-Slavs cannot use that name the way FYRoM covets. No other peoples can take a primordial tribal-name, an ancient and archaic, regional-historical, Haemus-Hellenic name, that has been in constant use by Greeks for >3 Millenniums, from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC.

    FYRoM Identity is Slavic with culture and tradition to match. If Slavs there claim Macedonian heritage, they are telling the world they were Centum-Greek speakers at one time…pre-Slavic times – now Slavicized!

    Macedonian proto-Identity is Hellenic – Slavicized E1b1b J2 Macedonians could Re-Hellenize…return back to the fold, and all that entails!

  43. There is only one history. One Macedonian story. History cannot support two versions of the Macedonia story…one pseudo and Slavic, and the other one, mainstream and Hellenic – Think about that for a moment.

    The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain…Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek-heritage. Two strong accredited tenets historians use to expose FYRoM like Slavic pretender to the ancient-Macedonian legacy. Those who fight against historians, contest and dispute prefixed academic reference-points, are anti-Hellenic at heart and anti-Western by extension. FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic Yugoslavians, similar to Serbians, Croatians, Bosnians, Slovenians, Montenegrins and Bulgarians.

    Integrating FYRoM into the Western worlds economic and security structures under the name ‘Republic of Macedonia’ dumps on academia and creates problems political-expediance did not cater for, or care about. The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon contributed greatly towards Western-worlds cultural foundation…FYRoM contributed nothing. Macedonians contributed heavily towards development of Civilizational priniciples the West still hold dear – Yugoslavians did not. Calling FYRoM Macedonia at political level shows total disregard for academia and displays disgraceful ignorance on subject matter classicist-historians spent life-time disseminating.

    FYRoM is minor Slavic country peopled by NoN-Greeks, therefore, it cannot exist next to Greece using the Macedonian name for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Macedonians are a Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples that exist in the Haemus [ Greek ] peninsula from since the times of King-Karanus 778-808 BC. FYRoM cannot benefit from their achievements.

    The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek-heritage…two tenets FYRoM argues and fights against, making it anti-Hellenic entity – anti-Western by extension.

    Macedonia: The Name, Identity, History, Heritage, Legacy – It’s All Greek!

    Macedonians have right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical, Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. FYRoM cannot exist like ‘Republic of Macedonia’ on that basis.

  44. Only in the minds of some sick and twisted anti-Hellenic, anti-Western drongo imbeciles, do they equate FYRoM to Macedonia and Yugoslavians to Macedonians.

    Only in the minds of some sick and twisted anti-Hellenic, anti-Western 5th columnist mind-architects, nesting in positions of power and influence, infiltrating highest echelons of diplomatic office, do they terra-form political future landscapes where Macedonia is graunched away from Greeks and Hellenism and placed into the hands of Slavs and Slavdom.

    Only in their sick and twisted minds do they see this future!

    Only in their anti-Hellenic eyes do they see FYRoM like ‘Republic of Macedonia’ and Yugoslavians like Macedonians.

    Those in charge in the West, with mandate to protect Western way of life, are also responsible for keeping Western worlds cultural-historical narrative safe from revisionism and pseudo-historical attack. In the FYRoM case, Western cultural-historical defense mechanisms were found wanting, non-existant!

    If FYRoM’s integration into the West necessitates the rewriting of history, then Academia declares War on political expediance. Historians challenge Politicians. Classicist historian scholars throw the gauntlet down in challenge to those anti-Hellenic, anti-Western 5th columnist drongo imbeciles vision of Western Civilizations future history.

    Only in the minds of some sick and twisted 5th columnist mind-architects, do they terra-form political future inside their heads where FYRoM is seen like ‘Republic of Macedonia’ and where Yugoslavians are seen like Macedonians.

    In the real world, Macedonians are Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples…recorded that way in the Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative – the narrative that binds Western Civil Society to shared common heritage. Destroy that, and you destroy the West

  45. Greece has historic rights over ancient-Greek Kingdom of Macedon. The Hellenic Republic is morally and legally obliged to defend national rights…and it does that, in principled, measured and commendable fashion.

    Greece is forced to protect the Hellenic Republic’s history and heritage because FYRoM challenges Greece over history rights to ancient-Macedonian legacy. Slavic politicians there believe they can persuade the international community to see FYRoM like Macedonia and to see the peoples there like Macedonians, on the basis of UN charter covering human rights. The rights of modern peoples and upcoming nations to name themselves the way they want, the way they feel, and the way they see fit is enshrined in the UN charter. FYRoM uses those rights to benefit from Greek contributions to world history.

    FYRoM revulsed the international academic community when the ruling elite there utilize apparatus of state to script minor Slavic country history and heritage dating back to pre-Slavic times…to before 6th Century AD, Slavic arrival to Haemus [Greek] peninsula.

    FYRoM historians were authorized to script minor Slavic country national history that was so crude and so crass, it went against all prefixed academic reference-points set in Western-worlds long-established mainstream cultural-historical narrative. In that narrative, Macedon is ancient-Greek Kingdom and Macedonians are Northern-Greeks, from Dorian-Hellenic stock. FYRoM made them Proto-Slavs and convinced young Slavic children pupils and students there to believe they derive from Slavic speaking ancient-Macedonians.

    FYRoM historians persuade young Slavic children pupils and students there to see the Rosetta Stone middle text inscriptions like their own long forgotten, lost proto-language, the one from which modern FYRoM-language is derived…they call it Macedonian-language.

    Greece holds the moral and academic high ground. The political-realm, diplomatic-realm and academic-realm support Greek positions against FYRoM attempt to rewrite history. FYRoM is not Macedonia. The peoples there are not Macedonians. The FYRoM-language is not Macedonian-language. In reality, FYRoM is Paeonia in ancient geographic terms, Dardanian north from Skopje. In reality, the peoples there are Southern-Slavs from Serbian and Bulgarian stock. In reality, the FYRoM-language is Serbo-Bulgarian, similar to Serbo-Croatian.

    Greece is right in wanting to protect the Hellenic Republics history and heritage against FYRoM attempts to besmirch them. There is only one history, one Macedonia story. History cannot support two versions of the Macedonia story…one Slavic and Pseudo, and the other one Hellenic and mainstream. Greeks look back at themselves and awe at their inheritance. FYRoM has no right
    to rubbish them.

    The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise, to find a proper more suitable name for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain. Macedonian identity belongs to Greek heritage. All arguments to the contrary have been had, and found wanting. The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise!

  46. Defending ignorance begets vanity, which begets pride, which begets arrogance.

    Vanity, is the virtue that keeps FYRoM South-Slavs from admitting to themselves that the land they live on is not the Macedonia they want it to be, but rather Paeonia, and then Dardania north from Skopje.

    Pride, is the virtue that keeps FYRoM South-Slavs from admitting to themselves that the language they speak is more properly called Serbo-Bulgarian, than the Macedonian-language they want it to be.

    Arrogance, is the virtue that keeps FYRoM South-Slavs from admitting to themselves that the Macedonian Name they covet for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity belongs to ancient-Greek Kingdom which has been peopled by Centum-Greek speakers from since >3 millenniums.

    Defending Ignorance begets Vanity Pride and Arrogance!

    Keeping the FYRoM Slavic-speaking population uneducated, unaware and uninformed on their ethno-genesis beginnings breeds ignorance. Being ignorant today in the information age is unecessary. Ignorance begets vanity, vanity begets pride and pride begets arrogance. We can see all of these virtues being used in FYRoM to defend the use of the Macedonian name for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

    Their can be No Republic of Macedonia outside of Hellenism. Macedon is ancient-Greek Kingdom. Macedonians are Hellenic on that basis. FYRoM South-Slavs cannot base their ethnogenesis story on ancient-Macedon or Centum-Greek speaking Macedonians.

    There can be No ethnic Macedonian-language spoken outside of Hellenism. Macedonians spoke Centum-Greek. Macedonians never spoke the FYRoM-language. FYRoM-language is Satem-Slavic, therefore, it cannot possibly be called Macedonian-language on that basis.

    Ignorance breeds vanity, and pride, and arrogance!

    FYRoM is not Macedonia. FYRoM is Paeonia, and then Dardania north from Skopje. Being ignorant on this academic reference-point is unnecessary today in the information age.

    FYRoM-language is not Macedonian-language. Calling a Satem-Slavic language, Macedonian-language, is being anti-Hellenic and linguistically mischievous in the extreme…with only vanity, pride and arrogance to defend such behaviour.

    FYRoM keeps the Slavic-speaking population there, uneducated, unaware and uninformed on matters Macedonian. Macedon is ancient-Greek Kingdom. Macedonians are Hellenic on that basis. Greece cannot allow minor Slavic country FYRoM, an anti-Hellenic entity, to use the name of an ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality and ethnicity. FYRoM cannot exist like ‘Republic of Macedonia’ on that basis.

  47. I don’t see anything wrong with Greeks wanting to preserve their history and heritage free from FYRoM pseudo-historical propaganda. Do You see anything wrong ?

    I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to keep Macedonian Identity-characteristics Hellenic. Do You anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM South-Slavs wanting to make Macedonian Identity-characteristics Slavic. Macedon is ancient-Greek Kingdom. Macedonians are Hellenic on that basis. Who got front to contest it.

    I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to keep the Macedonian name in the Greek domain. Do You see anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM wanting to use the Macedonian name for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples created that name. Who got face to deny it!

    I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to keep the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative intact, not held hostage to revisionism and unsubstantiated pseudo-historical Theories Ideas Conjectures. Do You anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM spreading pseudo-historical propaganda directed at the Hellenic-peoples, the Hellenic Republic and Hellenism, the culture that shaped Western worlds cultural-historical foundation.

    I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to resolve the name dispute in peaceful amicable manner, in manner that keeps Macedon Greek and FYRoM enlightened. Do You see anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM South-Slavs saying they want to resolve the name dispute, but on the proviso they keep the Macedonian name for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

    I see nothing wrong in Macedonians wanting to practice their self-determination right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. Do You see anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM South-Slavs wanting to superimpose Macedonian Identity-characteristics over their paternal-ancestral South-Slavic ones.

    I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to protect and preserve their history in accordance with the Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative. Do You see anything wrong with that ?

    Macedonians stand at forefront of long chain of Greek-speakers…a cultural-linguistic continuum spanning millennia. Macedonians look back at themselves and awe at their Hellenic inheritance.

    Who got face to besmirch them!

  48. FYRoM cannot base it’s existence on the backs of some unsubstantiated Theories Ideas and Conjectures, all of them wrapped in morsels of revisionism, presented to the world on pseudo-historical platter.

    FYRoM’s national survival as the Republic of Macedonia rests solely on the twin pillars of revisionism and pseudo-history. The Macedonian name does not sit well on Paeonia, so FYRoM has to rewrite history in order to present Paeonia like Macedon, the ancient-Greek Kingdom.

    FYRoM’s historical-revisionism attempts to legitimize the re-examination of ancient-Greek history. They say, Western historical bias keeps Slavs from claiming their true history and heritage in the Haemus peninsula, which they equate to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity. For them, Macedon was not Greek Kingdom and Macedonians were not Greek but rather proto-Slavic peoples.

    Natural-law dictates that only natural things can survive in natures-world. Unnatural things need sustenance. They perish over time, when nourishment they need to survive deplete to exhaustion levels. In the FYRoM case, the food-stuffs [[Historical-Revisionism][Pseudo-History]] which nourished and sustained their existence from since 1991, have depleted to point of exhaustion. In the natural world, when that happens…extinction usually follows!

    With every passing year, the need for FYRoM to exist like Republic of Macedonia diminishes.

    The argument that FYRoM has right to name itself after the name of an ancient-Greek Kingdom is seen for what it really is – just an argument for arguments sake!

    FYRoM cannot use the name of an ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationlity, language and ethnicity.

    Macedonians exist in natures world >3 Millenniums now…as Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples – not as Satem-Slavic speakers from FYRoM.

  49. FYRoM is Not Macedonia. FYRoM language is Not Macedonian. FYRoM inhabitants are Not Macedonians. FYRoM is Paeonia, Dardania north from Skopje. FYRoM language is Serbo-Bulgarian, similar to Serbo-Croatian. FYRoM inhabitants are South-Slavs, similar to Slovenes, Croatians, Serbians, Montenegrins, Bosnians and Bulgarians. Macedon is Greek Kingdom. Macedonians are Hellenic on that basis. FYRoM cannot use the name of ancient-Greek Kingdom for Country-Name…Sovereign State-Name, Nationality, Language or Ethnicity on that basis. Can You See it Now! For as long as Nation States exist, the Hellenic Republic reserves the right to carry out it’s legal and moral obligations, to defend protect and preserve the Nations history, heritage, and cultural-inheritance…all in that order.

    No credible person of worth in the West, from politics diplomacy or academia sees FYRoM like Macedonia or ex-Yugoslavians like Macedonians. FYRoM is simply seen for what it really is – a minor Slavic country recently established 1991. FYRoM cannot exist on northern periphery of Greece using the name of an ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality and ethnicity, these identity factors which do not bode well for South-Slavs. No Slavic tribe used the Macedonian Name for identity. Slavs did not come into the Greco-Roman world as Macedonians. There was No Macedonia in the Slavic world until a Croat created one, in 1945. Marshall Josip Broz Tito created a new, 6th autonomous republic, inside the confines of a federated Yugoslavia in 1945. With motive, he baptized it ‘Peoples Republic of Macedonia’. Before 1945, that place was South-Serbian province called Vardarska Banovina.

    People names and Place Names are important, most important to the peoples that created them in the first place. Macedon is Greek creation, Macedonians are Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples >3 millenniums, from since the days of King Karanus 808-778 BC. FYRoM has no moral ethical right to use the name of ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name. FYRoM has no cultural, historic or geographic reason to apply Macedonian Identity to a South-Slavic peoples. FYRoM origin Place-Names and People Names are Slavonic, totally unrelated to Hellenic Place Names and People Names. From ethical moral stand point, FYRoM cannot justify applying ancient-Greek regional-tribal name to a land and a peoples that do not connect to Macedon and Macedonians in any meaningful way.

    The rights of FYRoM do not transcend the rights of Macedonians wanting to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. FYRoM is Not Macedonia. FYRoM language is Not Macedonian. FYRoM inhabitants are Not Macedonians – Stop indulging Them!

  50. Of course! If it was exclusive SlavoSkopians wouldn’t attempt to name their country as Macedonia.
    But this does not mean that it could be SlavoSkopian exclusively. This is exactly what Greeks are fighting against.

    Because if a country, language, ethnicity, citizenship, … are called Macedonian then no other language, ethnicity, …… could be called Macedonian. Thus the monopolization of the name that Greeks cannot deal with.

    As a solution, the name of Macedonia MUST refer to the ancient Macedonians EXCLUSIVELY. Their country, language, ethnicity, citienship, …… is Macedonian and nobody else’s.

    In modern times the name of Macedonia MUST be ONLY geographic and NOTHING else.

    Greeks created, defined and make very glorious the name of Macedonia. Therefore we cannot allow any non-Greek people to monopolize it!

    See also: http://istormacedonian.blogspot.gr/2014/12/wanna-visit-macedonia-be-careful.html

  51. We Greeks aren’t so upset or angry that they use the name “Macedonia”, yes they do in fact live in a place that used to be Macedonian. BWhat we are upset over is that they don’t have the right to claim our history just because they live in a place that used to be Macedonian (which means that it used to be Greek). FYROM’s terittory used to be ruled by the Macedons, a greek tribe. The slavs settled there in the Byzantine years. Yet FYROM’s people claim that Alexander the Great was a slav! Not only that they also changed his name to Iskandar! And Iskandar isn’t the slav variation of Alexander but a tottaly different name. In greek Iskandar translates as Iskandros and Alexander as Alexandros and they are both used as names in fact there is an area (i think that it is a small forest) in Greece named Iskandros. So they claim our history and that is unfair.

  52. If the Greek-speaking inhabitants of modern-Greece descend from ancient-Greeks, why can’t Slavic-speakers from FYRoM descend from ancient, pre-Slavic population that once dwelt there, where FYRoM is situated geographically. If Genes denote origin…that is to say place of origin, not ethnic or racial origin, then the inhabitants of FYRoM descend from Paeonians and Dardanians, these were the Haemus-native people-groups that dwelt there once upon a time in antiquity. FYRoM is situated on ancient-Paeonian lands, Dardanian lands north from Skopje. This information tells us something important – It tells us that FYRoM is not Macedon geographically. It also tells us that the peoples there are Slavicized now. Conversely, if the Slavic-speaking peoples of FYRoM descend from those pre-Slavic, Haemus-native people-groups, namely the ancient Paeonians and Dardanians, why can’t Greek-speakers from Macedon descend from ancient peoples that once upon a time lived there, in the ancient-Greek Kingdom of Macedon.

    Genes denote place of origin. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0105090
    But genes tell us only half the story. Culture tells us the rest. Culture and language combined, create unique cultural-linguistic space…if that space proves to be a dominant resilient one, then peoples in closest proximity to it would eventually succumb. Willingly, voluntarily, by force, or by free-will, Paeonians wandering off into the cultural-linguistic space of Macedon, would learn to speak Greek. After 8 generations of acculturation, those Paeonians would have learned to walk and talk like Macedonians, they would have learned to do what other Greeks did in antiquity, they would have become assimilated Greeks. The Kingdom of Paeonia together with the Kingdom of Macedon, united, to do battle with barbarian Celts and Illyrians. Paeonia became a Hellenic-friendly place. Hence, King Philip of Macedon incorporated Paeonia into his Kingdom. From since 217 BC, the peoples of Paeonia were indistinguishable from the peoples of Macedon. The rules of People-Dynamics dictate that if you Walk like a Greek and you Talk like a Greek – You are Greek, as far as King Philip of Macedon was concerned.

    The point is this: Haemus-peoples are Haemus-peoples…very difficult to distinguish one from another one. Only when they start to speak, can you place identity on them. Language and culture define them. Genes define place of origin only. Remember – The Genes people carry today may not reflect faithfully, their current ethnic feelings and national-pride. Carriers of Haemus native Genes can be heard speaking many languages but it is only the Greek-speakers that can boast to keeping true, to a cultural-linguistic continuum that has existed there in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula for >3 Millenniums.

    Greeks distinguish other Haemus-natives by the language they speak. Slavophone denotes Slavic-speaker from Haemus heritage. When Genes, Peoples, and Language exist in same place for Millenniums, trying to keep authentic and as true as possible, to the identity-characteristics of their Paleo-Haemus ancestors – they should be respected, not envied or derided for doing that.

  53. This year FYRoM is 24 years old and still trying to resolve a name-dispute who’s vintage is of same age. FYRoM is 24 year-old statelet that is still having problems persuading the UN, EU, USA, NATO and the International Academic Community to accept a recently-established minor Slavic country like ‘Republic of Macedonia’. FYRoM is 24 year-old newly-emergent entity somewhere between statelet and nation. National cohesion there has not quite ripened to maturity, enough to call it nation. Nation building there attempts to unify population-dynamic who’s demographic constitutes >3 different ethnic people-groups boasting >3 different but corresponding heritages. Majority Yugoslavs from Serbian and Bulgarian heritages attempt to build nation with Albanian, Turk, Vlach and other compatriots. Countrymen like these, boasting different, Slavic, Turkic, Albanian, Vlach and other heritages, cannot be expected to unite behind ancient-Greek Name, with Macedonian Identity, and with History, Heritage, Legacy to match. This is where FYRoM fails…in the Nation building arena.

    Nations are recent political constructs built from the ashes of long expired defunkt empires. Nation building is attempt to construct one same common unifying identity, hence, the state needs to come into existence before the nation. The apparatus of state therefore, becomes instrumental in this process. Nation building in FYRoM utilizes the apparatus of state to construct one national identity for Yugoslavs, Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and Others to unite behind. But national cohesion comes only when the constituent population-dynamic can recollect something from collective memory in remembrance of some great event from past history, something common that was shared and is still being celebrated today, in the present. The problem in FYRoM is this: The demographic there share nothing in history, no common themes or synergies – hence, Albanians, Vlachs, Turks and Gypsis cannot be expected to feel any sense of national belonging to the bigger wider Yugoslavic population-dynamic.

    The majority Yugoslavic population in FYRoM seek to unite the minority demographic there under one same common Macedonian identity. They have used the apparatus of state to build a national identity based on ancient-Greek themes and synergies. They use the name of an ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name, for sovereign state-name, for nationality, for language and for ethnicity. And base their ethnogenesis story and subsequent history on the same. Everything in FYRoM is Macedonian orientated…and this is very problematic for the NoN-Slavic compatriots there. The majority Yugoslavians in FYRoM, whether they are Serb or Bulgarian in heritage, view each other that way. The Albanians view them that way too. Turks and Gypsis do the same. Basing national identity, national history, national symbols, on ancient-Greek themes and synergies is wrong way to go about nation building. And on this, FYRoM is like a child telling grown-ups what to do and how to do it.

    FYRoM is 24 years old this year. A newly emergent country. A child in terms of state. Not ripened yet…matured enough for nation. To build a nation you have to do what Alexander the Great did – unite fractious people-dynamic with one vision, under one directive, under one leadership that campaigns for common cause and the national good. Alexander the Great did all of this. He united the fractious Greeks into one unified nation of Hellenes and then went on to export Hellenism, the Greek-language, culture and knowledge to the farthest easternmost reaches of the then known ancient-world. If FYRoM did what Alexander the Great did…Greeks would call Yugoslavians ‘Macedonians’ and view them like brother-peoples, a sister nation to Hellas.

  54. Respect is long overdue – Greek-speaking Macedonians deserve the respect of their E1b1b J2 Slavic-speaking brothers and sisters…for keeping Macedonian identity Greek. Proof is linguistic continuity. Greek-speaking Macedonians sit at top-end of hierarchy table. Slavophones cannot place themselves on equilibrium with Greek-speakers when claiming heritage from ancient-Haemus people-groups.

    Slavophones lose out to Greek-speakers on hierarchy!

    Macedonians are the Greeks that fight to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors.

    Slavophones must learn to respect that!

    E1b1b J2 Slavic-speaking Haemus Natives carry something from Paleo-Haemus times. But so do E1b1b J2 Greek-speakers.

    Macedonians have always spoken the Hellenic language and continue to do so. Slavic-speakers broke the chain of linguistic continuity the moment they adopted Slavic for language. The laws governing People-dynamics place Greek-speakers in front of Slavic-speakers on hierarchical basis.

    Macedonians continue to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional-historical Greek-speaking ancestors…

    …Slavic-speakers must learn to show respect!

  55. Daniel is right when he says, “Macedonia is not exclusively Greek”

    Macedonia the extended region is not exclusively Greek…just Macedon is. The ancient-Greek kingdom kept a Greek presence there continuously, for >3 Millenniums. Macedonians from Macedon deserve respect for preserving historical cohesion and keeping continuity. FYRoM contesting Macedons Hellenic credentials is the main obstacle keeping this newly established minor Slavic country from realizing it’s stated objectives to join the western worlds most prestigious economic and security structures of the EU and NATO.

    Macedon and Macedonians deserve respect for contributing massively towards early development of western civilizational principles. Macedonians from Macedon are responsible for Western civil societies common understandings of shared common heritage. FYRoM touting for recognition under the name ‘Republic of Macedonia’ blurs the distinction between Macedonians and Yugoslavians, between Macedon and Paeonia…Hellenes from South-Slavs.

    Greeks understand that new emerging countries have right to name themselves by any name they like, but FYRoM chose a name that belongs to an ancient-Greek Kingdom, which Greeks hold dear, kick-starting off a name dispute with Greece that is now in the early years of it’s third decade.

    But the idea that newly emerging countries can name themselves by any name they like is not strictly entirely true, there are encumbrances, constraints and limitations…cultural-concerns for example, historical-considerations for another example, intellectual-property ownership for final example.

    FYRoM tested the Western worlds legal systems on all of those important identity-factors, bringing to the fore some noticeable operational weaknesses, flaws that are looked upon like undesirable features which question the integrity of Western legal frameworks ability to cope with challenges. Slavic claimants to Macedonian legacy is one example. Rewriting Western-worlds cultural-historical narrative is another example. Illegitimate use of another
    persons intellectual-property, for final example.

    The idea that a newly emergent country can use the name of an ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity poses very real important questions for the West which demand answers, (i) philosophical questions, (ii) moral ethical questions, (iii) cultural-historical questions, (iv) intellectual-property questions, (v) cultural-inheritance questions. The name dispute between FYRoM and Greece used up so much diplomatic time, so many political resources, covered so many academic disciplines, tested so many legalities, that it threatens to stay unresolved for indefinite period of time.

    FYRoM recognized like ‘Republic of Macedonia’ if legitimized, would put the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative into disrepute…hence, FYRoM cannot exist like ‘Republic of Macedonia’ on that basis.

  56. The current name of FYRoM cannot be the basis on which the inhabitants there begin their ethnogenesis story. South-Slavs there stake their paternal-maternal origins in Macedon, on the basis of country-name and scripted themselves a national historical narrative on that basis. But before 1945, FYRoM’s name was ‘Vardaska’ with Slavic history and heritage to match. In Europe, we cannot have a situation where newly emergent country FYRoM, bases ethno-origins on country-name that was acquired during end years of WWII, after 1945.

    In Europe, we must all be reading from one same history book. The history of Europe is intertwined. We cannot have a situation where one country is allowed to teach different history to their children pupils and students with impunity and without consequences. What is taught in FYRoM contradicts the concise history of Europe and places into disrepute the western-worlds cultural-historical narrative.

    What FYRoM is doing is wrong, it breaks all the rules governing European standards, morals ethics and codes of conduct. Scripting a national historical narrative that contravenes academic disciplines and fails to comply with European teaching norms goes against all those rules. What FYRoM does with Macedonian history is detrimental to European history as a whole.

    The current name of FYRoM cannot be the basis on which young impressionable South-Slavic children learn about themselves, about their ethnogenesis story. Basing FYRoM history on post 1945 name, completely blurs the distinction between Yugoslavian-identity and Macedonian-identity, it mystifies FYRoM current identity with Slavic and Hellenic histories and this is both confusing and problematic.

    FYRoM’s children pupils and students deserve a history and heritage, an ethnogenesis story that is both consistent and compatible with what is known about them, in Europe and beyond. Pre-Slavic history and post 1945 name, cannot be the basis on which FYRoM bases ethnogenic beginnings.

    FYRoM is not Macedon, FYRoM language is not Macedonian. FYRoM inhabitants are not Macedonians. Macedon and Macedonians belong to Hellenic world, to Greek history, to Greek-Hellenic collective of peoples.

    Show respect to European history, or pay the price – prolonged isolation!

  57. Using Serwers’ own logic then… Tel Aviv. Jeruselem, Haifa, etc.. aren’t exclusively Jewish either.

    Since modern Jew Serwer claims to stand for human rights, claims to stand for democracy, claims to stand for minorities, claims to stand for the absolute right to self-determination… then the State of Palestine should be finally be recognized.

    International pressure needs to be ratcheted up against the Israeli government (that has no problem with recognizing Skopje but does have a problem recognizing a Palestnian state).

    Europe and the rest of the world also has to finally band together into into a “coalition of the willing” to start calling out some of the extreme Christan nationalists within the US that have been funding the slow pogrom of Palestians. (part of their own mystic biblical agenda.. the same sorts of Christian religious fanatics want to teach children the earth is 6000 years old and evolution is a myth)

    If violent oppressive irredentist fundamentalist Christian and Jewish nationalist extremists continue to fail to respect the human rights of Palestinians… to ignore the wishes of virtually the entire international community… then the international community should begin dialogue indepedent of US involvement about ending in peacekeeping troops to protect the sovereign borders of Palestinian from Israeli and American nationalist military aggression.

    And it shouldn’t end with just a Palestinian state. Palestinians, and other minorities that live in Israel should also have full rights. Many Jews oppose their treatment of Palestinians but unfortunately they are the minority. The reality is Israel is effectively an aparteid state. It even has fascist-like laws that prevent Jews and non-Jews from having their marriages recognized by the state (Jewish nationalist extremists don’t want to mix their allegedly “pure” Jewish blood with the dirty inferior goys much like Germany had similar racial hygiene laws under Hitler).

    Modern Jews like Serwer often claims to stand for multi-ethnic tolerant societies… in nations other than Israel. If his motives were sincere, he would equally support the same policies in Israel.

  58. Filarakia, I have recently come across an electronic version of a book titled ‘Macedonia in Ancient Times’. This book is attributed to Antonije Skokljev-Donco, Slave Nikolovski-Katin and the world famous Risto Stefov. The book cites, quotes and mentions Herodotus more that seventy times. I repeat, more than seventy times. It must be considered then that Herodotus is a seriously significant source on ancient Macedonia and the ancient Macedonians to the vulgar Bulgars. Point is filarakia, that Herodotus manifestly supports the Greek perspective on ancient Macedonia and the ancient Macedonians ….. and p….s all over the vulgar Bulgars. Lol, filarakia.

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