The Greece-Macedonia name dispute
I spoke at Harvard Friday about the Greece-Macedonia name dispute, along with Matt Nimetz and Boshk0 Stankovski. Here are the speaking notes I used.
1. Thank you for that kind introduction. The opportunity to speak at Harvard Law School is truly an honor. Harvard’s Project on Negotiation is a mecca for all who would like to see disputes managed peacefully.
2. That is what Matt Nimetz has done for more than 20 years. I am honored to meet him. We should not minimize his extraordinary achievement: an issue that in the early 1990s threatened to throw Macedonia into the Balkans cauldron with Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo has steadily lost its saliency.
3. I confess that I’ve even referred to it as the most boring dispute in the Balkans and therefore promise to speak less than 20 minutes more about it.
4. Let’s start with the obvious: this dispute is not really about the name. If it were, Greeks would long ago have accepted my citing the 1257 places in the United States that use the name “Macedonia” as dispositive. They would celebrate, not denigrate, the compliment from their neighbor.
5. Washington, DC was founded explicitly as the “new Rome.” I’ve never met an Italian who objected. The Italian government has even donated a few statues to beef up that image.
6. There were, however, already a lot of Americans dressed in togas adorning statuary hall in the Capitol, a building that is a blatant 18th-century attempt to imitate the glory of the ancients. Not to mention the National Gallery’s rip-off of the coffered ceiling of the Pantheon.
7. No, if this dispute were about the name and the statues, Greeks would be pleased that a non-Greek people who have come to occupy land that was once ancient Paeonia have adopted Greek antecedents as their ideal.
8. But if it is not about the name, what is it about?
9. Like many Balkan conflicts, it is about identity and territory. My inbox and my blog are chock a block full of messages from Greeks accusing modern-day Macedonians of “stealing” their Greek identity and having designs on their territory.
10. It is hard for me to imagine identity theft of this sort. If you are confident of your national identity, no one can take it from you. The official name of Mexico is Estados Unidos…Mexicanos. No one in the United States worries about that, though some Mexicans do. We have a state called New Mexico. Neither Mexicans nor gringos worry about that either.
11. Today, Mexicans and Americans are confident of their identity and unconcerned about designs on their territory.
12. Greeks are not.
13. They have precious little reason to worry about their territory. Macedonia’s constitution now includes a provision ruling out irredentist ambitions. I’ve never met a Macedonian who had any.
14. The problem is more subtle than that. Greece does not want to acknowledge the existence of a “Macedonian” minority on its territory, fearing that would lead to territorial and other claims. Greece feels the same way about Albanians and many other minorities, which are simply not recognized under Greek law and practice.
15. This gives us a hint of the deeper problem: identity. Strong assertions of national identity come from insecurity about national identity. Why do such gigantic American flags fly over car dealerships all over America? Because we are a diverse and varied lot, many of whom drive Japanese and Korean cars. I even have Greek correspondents who have informed me that we are not really a nation because we don’t share a genetic or cultural heritage.
16. The fact is that modern-day Greeks show no more genetic sign of descent from the ancient Greeks than do other peoples in the Balkans. I understand there is only one exception: the Vlachs, a people most Americans have never heard of, who do have DNA that includes modestly more genetic markers from the ancients.
17. The fact is that all the Balkans peoples are mixed, despite their bold claims to ethnic and genetic purity. The barbarian and Slavic invasions thoroughly inundated prior civilizations.
18. What modern day Greece has from the ancients is not descent but rather language and culture. Neither is threatened by Macedonia being called Macedonia, especially as the language of Macedonia is a Slavic one and the country’s official name is the Republic of Macedonia.
19. No one can confuse that with Ancient Makedon, which was not a republic.
20. So to make a long story short, I am not neutral—as Matt Nimetz must be—on this name question. I believe in the right of people to call themselves what they want, so long as that is not used to harm others. I see no harm to Greece from Macedonia being called Macedonia.
21. But life is full of compromises. The original compromise in this case was reached in 1995, when Athens and Skopje agreed in the Interim Accord that the country I call Macedonia could enter international organizations as The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, The FYROM. It did just that for ten years and more.
22. So when it was ready to enter NATO in 2008 it was prepared to do so with that appellation.
23. Greece blocked The FYROM’s accession to NATO.
24. Skopje took Greece to the International Court of Justice, whose 15/1 decisions were unequivocal: Greece had violated the Interim Accord, The FYROM had not, and it should be allowed to enter NATO as such.
25. A law-abiding country at this point would yield. Greece did not. Instead it made bogus claims that the ICJ had declined to enforce the decision. That is laughable, since the ICJ has no power to enforce its decisions on sovereign states but made absolutely clear that the decision was legally binding.
26. I will readily admit that the United States does not always abide by ICJ decisions. That is America’s shame. The failure of Greece to abide by the ICJ decision is Greece’s shame.
27. But let’s get real: why does all this matter in a world where we’ve got ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Iran on the verge of nuclear weapons, China challenging its neighbors and Sunni Arab countries intervening against Shia in Yemen? There are a lot more important things to worry about.
28. It only matters because the name dispute, unworthy of your attention and mine, is blocking Macedonia from entering NATO and heightening interethnic tensions there.
29. Macedonian has met NATO’s entry requirements. Its troops have fought—under US command—in Afghanistan, where Macedonians have also guarded NATO headquarters.
30. The merits are clear: Macedonia belongs in NATO.
31. Meanwhile, Greece’s intransigence has brought out the worst in Macedonia. Prime Minister Gruevski seems hell bent on provoking Athens with statues, names, a triumphal arch. Without a settlement, it serves his domestic political interests to do so.
32. The country’s Albanians regret the delay in entering NATO, which they regard as vital to their security, and fear that Macedonian nationalism will someday turn on them.
33. So what we’ve got is a well-managed conflict—Matt Nimetz has done a great job for many years—over an unimportant issue—the name—that arises from a deeper insecurity about identity and is causing serious inter-ethnic tensions within one of the parties to the dispute.
34. The dispute has been so well managed for so many years that it is becoming harder to resolve.
35. But there are consequences. This is no way to run an Alliance. There is a need get beyond the current impasse. My job now is to suggest ways we might do it.
36. I have to question whether the UN mediator is still a good approach to the deeper issues of insecurity and territory that underlie this dispute.
37. Or, alternatively, would we be better off if Athens and Skopje had to resolve the issues—whatever they may be—directly with each other?
38. This is in no way meant to reflect negatively on what Matt has done—and accomplished. We are a lot better off today than 20 years ago, and for that we should count ourselves fortunate.
39. But we haven’t got another 20 years. It is clear enough that this issue is contributing to destabilization of Macedonia, which will get worse if progress is not made.
40. Would a solution come faster if the United States stopped telling everyone that this issue has to be settled before Macedonia gets NATO membership? Washington could instead insist on The FYROM becoming a member at the Summit in Warsaw next year.
41. Would it come faster if Berlin made it clear to Athens that it wants the issue resolved?
42. Would it come faster if the UN came out of its neutral posture and instead came down unequivocally on the side of implementing the binding agreement of the International Court of Justice?
43. Would a solution come faster in direct, face-to-face negotiations?
44. I don’t mean to suggest that I know all the answers to these difficult questions. They are not intended to be rhetorical but real.
45. In a world with many more important issues, we should be trying to wrap this dispute up and move on to other, more pressing matters.
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160 thoughts on “The Greece-Macedonia name dispute”
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Dear Mr. Serwer
I have read all your listed points above but permit me to say without taking valuable part of your time that the dispute with FYROM is complex and has been degenerated from a name issue to a profound historical identity “war” by the government of FYROM. The question isn’t the name as you well put it but historical revised identity and heritage. Historical claims by FYROM that have no historical/archaeological or cultural base. Alexander the Great and his father Philip or Olympias and other important Hellenic ancient personalities such as Aristotles etc. have been brought into the perverse FYROMIAN historical revisionism and vandalism. We all know the historical background and heritage of the Slavs and particularly that of the Bulgarians of Pirin who claim to be “Macedonians” connected to the ancient Macedonians (Greeks speaking the Doric Dialect and later also the Ionic) who spread Hellenism throughout the ancient world. Greeks don’t need to defend or prove their history but we cannot allow such violent revisionism which will lead to future disasters in world history.
Pot calling the kettle black. Reread points 16, 17, and 18.
I have read 16, 17, 18 (also before) but they are very subjective and generic. Based on what?? References of any serious genetic and laographic studies??? Language and culture are rather stronger bonds of descent than only blood line, don’t you think?? Why do you think that the ancient Greek line has disappeared from the Modern Greeks while all the others have less lineage losses. By history the Greeks were the less mixed people in the area due to their strong identity, uniqueness in language, customs and religion. All these things created a rather closed society very hard in terms of integration and somehow mixing easily or readily with others. In fact the Greeks like the Italians and Jews in the USA form unique cultural and bloodline continuation groups.
How more xenophobic you can be? Even when addressing you neighbors you use fyromians, vandalism in the same sentence, just to describe us as more primitive. Guess it makes you more superior than me, right?! If you really want to know your origin, please contact igenea.org and get your DNA checked. At least they do make difference between Macedonians and Hellenic people, when you don’t. Otherwise, it is pretty ignorant to claim that Macedonian who live in Republic of Macedonia which is part of the ethnic territory of Macedonia divided after the second Balkan war in 1913, between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece, has no Macedonian heritage.
P.S. If your country is known as Greece, you call it Elada, also as Yunnanistan, known also as Hellenic republic or Hellas, or Danania… can really be serious and deny us using our only name – Macedonia?!
P.S.2 Since you love acronyms and Macedonia is FYROM, than probably you will love your acronym GEYHD… (Greece, Elada, Yunnanistan, Helenic Republic, Danania…)
Utter nonsence and the usual rubbish talk when the things get tough for the pseudomacedonians which at the end leads nowhere but to the usual violent exchange of words.
Igenea reports on DNA are proven laughable since they are made on specimens ethnically non-uniform in terms of population in a country (and ancestry depth of the samples). So in Greece we have e.g.Pakistani immigrants who live in Greece so the Greek DNA (according Igenea) has also Central Asian chromosomes??????!!!!!!!!!! There are serious genetic studies on uniform population samples and ancient DNA that in comparison prove (in this case the Greeks) the closest and more precise DNA spectrum for your info. Such studies well accepted internationally show clearly (20.000 samples for each Greek region and South Italy) that the modern Greek DNA in Greece is almost identical (96.4%) to the ancient Greek DNA found also among the populations of South Italy. Study a bit before you throw nonsence.
Blood and DNA are not related to ethnicity, at least within arace. If we control your education system the way that Tito was doing we will call you Macedonians. We will not change your blood, promise.
All your ancestors clearly stated that they were Bulgarians. Ask me about. http://www.network54.com/Forum/415923/message/1126215175
Historic nations have many names: http://www.network54.com/Forum/415923/message/1119555021
Actually, it’s more like FOPOG – Former Ottomon Province Of Greece. Thanks David Cameron,
What a BS artist. You talk as if you are a third party but you are Skopian propagandist. Its obvious given your “facts” (verbatim Skopian talking points)
You are living proof Greeks were right to object to former Yugoslavians being called “Macedonians”. As a Greek,I no longer accept even a composite name. It will revolve the matter. VMRO Fanatics like you can’t be trusted anywhere near the name Macedona.
It is precisely because of fanatics like you I believe Greece’s objective should now be the complete dissolution of Skopje (or at least for as long as there is “Macedonia’ in the name). If any foreign nation interferes with that, I see it as a covert act of aggression against Greece and will lump in their own country and identities with Skopje for erasure.
Greeks have dealt in good faith on this issue. Skopje, and their antihellenic apologists in bad faith.
A number of studies in the American Journal of Human Genetics – one of the world´s most respected journals contain data from archaeological finds in Ancient Macedonia, as well of the rest of Europe. The Swiss company iGenea, the European subsidiary of the worlds largest Genealogical DNA company – FamilyTreeDNA, has taken this data and put together genetic profiles of ancient peoples based on specific genetic markers. One of these is a specific Ancient Macedonian genetic profile. The Macedonian profile is similar to the Ancient Greek profile – but different enough to be distinct. Genetically, they were a separate people.
The Ancient Macedonians had a different culture to the Ancient Greeks. They were called barbarians by the Greeks, who did not consider the Macedonians to be Greeks. Macedonians lacked the polis culture central to Greek society and they did not stem from the Mycenaean civilization like the Greeks did. Modern Greeks, given their tenuous link to the Ancient Greeks, are even further distanced from Ancient Macedonian culture.
Modern Greeks are a very different culture. The centrality of the monotheistic Greek Orthodox church, the concept of Greek nationalism, the legacies of Turkish domination on their music, traditions, food and language separate them from the rough Ancient Macedonians.
Religion
Modern Greeks are orthodox. Ancient Macedonians were polytheistic. There is very little similarity in beliefs. Greek Orthodoxy went to great lengths to distance themselves from their ´pagan´ past.
This is what a Theban Greek writer, namelly Plutarh, wrote about Macedonians. It’s a hymn to Macedonians’ doubtless Greekness. Enjoy: http://www.starkrealities.com/fortune.html ( passage 5, at least!)
Sorry, neither Philip or Alexander saw or called themselves ‘Barbarians”, they self identified as Greeks (Hellene’s). Here’s a quote by Alexander himself;
“Alexander came by the statue of his father and spoke loud:`Youths of the Pellasgians and of the Macedonian’s and of the Hellenic Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for AS Hellene’s WE should not be slaves to barbarians.” Arrian.
Utter bullshit. I spoke directly with Roman Sholz from iGenea & asked if an ancient Macedonian DNA sample was used to compare it with the DNA of the people of FYROM & his answer was an explicit NO! So my question to u is, how can ur people claim to have Alexander’s blood running thru their veins if no DNA comparison was made? I also asked Roman if the people of FYROM have a similar DNA profile to the Bulgarians &/or Serbians & his answer was YES! I think u need to check out these results for yourself & ask Roman these same questions if u feel that I am not saying the truth.
Bahahaha! the Yugoslav’s of the FYR are the one claiming that they have Alexander’s blood running through their veins.
yeah, through blood transfusion in 1946. Tito suggested it!!!!!
;o) But in 1926 the Greek government in Athens published ABECEDAR, the school book into Macedonian language for the pupils in elementary school. Has to be Tito’s work as well (who was Croat by nationality).
and you are denying that Sultan Suleiman was your daddy. At least Efi Thodi admits it
Actually u & ur people are the one denying this seeing as ur the ones that were under Ottoman rule for around 150 years longer than the Greeks.
It will help Greece more if they worry about their debt and let Macedonia be, that would be a logical thing to do. I agree with Daniel Server on everything he says except Q37.
i very much agree with Washington can insist on FYROM becoming a member at the summit.
Debt and Heritage aren’t interchangeable. You cannot give up your heritage because you worry about debt. Greece should worry equally for both and it cannot lightly let “Macedonia” be for debt’s sake!!
Whitewashing of former Yugoslavians identity quick change into descendents of ancient Macedonians and irredentism only destroy your own credibility.
Insist all you want. Not only should Greece continue to VETO but it should start extending hostility towards Skopje apologists.
Playing dumb over Skopje’s obvious manipulation of the name to promote irredentism effectively amounts to being morally complicit in it. Greece needs to start shopping around for actual allies.. not “allies” that casually attempt to ethnic cleanse Greeks.
Your unhealthy obsession with Greeks says more about you than Greeks. I would worry about your own business over Greeks.
It would help Greece more if patronizing bigots stopped pretending not to notice former Yugoslavians identity quick change into ancient macedonians, accompanying irredentism, and attempts to narrate Greeks out of ethnic existence. (aka GENOCIDE)
“Let’s start with the obvious: this dispute is not really about the name. Greeks would long ago have accepted my citing the 1257 places in the United States that use the name “Macedonia” as dispositive”
No kidding. The part that you leave out (as usually) is Greeks don’t object to Americans using name Macedonia for parts of America because Americans don’t attempt claim to be founders of the Hellenistic period.. unlike say the former Yugoslavians now do. Americans don’t manipulate the name insinuate 1/3 of Greece is their occupied homeland either.
“They have precious little reason to worry about their territory. Macedonia’s constitution now includes a provision ruling out irredentist ambitions. I’ve never met a Macedonian who had any”
Then you are either dumb or a liar. Massive numbers of former Yugoslavians promote irredentism. What do you think the giant Alexander statue is about Serwer? Its implicitly a claim on Greek history and territory.
“Like many Balkan conflicts, it is about identity and territory.”
You seem to have left the part out where the former Yugoslavians used to assure Greek hating foreign apologists like yourself they weren’t claiming to be related to ancient Macedonians. Now all of sudden they are claiming the opposite while you pretend not to notice?
“The problem is more subtle than that. Greece does not want to acknowledge the existence of a “Macedonian” minority on its territory”
More BS. Greeks consider Macedonians Greek. We recognize Macedonians just not Slavs as “Macedonians” because they use the name to promote irredentism. We can no more ridiculously recognize Skopje as “Ethnic Macedonians” than we can “ethnic Athenians”
“Skopje took Greece to the International Court of Justice, whose 15/1 decisions were unequivocal: Greece had violated the Interim Accord, The FYROM had not”
Is that the same ICJ that played dumb as the former Yugoslavians turned from Slavs into founders of the Hellenstic period?
“I will readily admit that the United States does not always abide by ICJ decisions.”
Hypocrisy is hardly a convincing argument.
“where we’ve got ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Iran
Red herrings that further illustrate how dishonestly you argue.
“The fact is that modern-day Greeks show no more genetic sign of descent from the ancient Greeks than do other peoples in the Balkans”
And where do you get your “facts” from Serwer Skopjians that now claim to be descendents of ancient Macedonians? Our language (Greek in more than just name), our culture, and geography and even our DNA attest to our very real connection to ancient Greeks. Your casual attempt to delete Greeks on your assurances is akin to claiming the Palestinians as the real Jews. Bizarre and racist.
“Macedonian has met NATO’s entry requirements”
Pure nonsense. VMRO is clearly authoritarian regime that violates NATO rules on many levels. Skopjians are clearly manipulating name to promote irredentism against Greece (as they did in 1944 when US itself supported Greece on this issue — which you constantly hide).
The very fact liars like you pretend not to notice the irredentism is a disgrace to you and even NATO (that violates the spirit of its legal requirement to protect NATO member Greece)
“Meanwhile, Greece’s intransigence has brought out the worst in Macedonia. Prime Minister Gruevski seems hell bent on provoking Athens with statues, names, a triumphal arch.”
Sure buddy. Everything Skopians do wrong is Greece fault. Its Greece’s fault Skopians are manipulating name to promote irredentism… not the fault of Skopje and patronizing Greek hating bigots that ridiculously recognized obvious Slavs as “ethnic” Macedonians.
“Washington could instead insist on The FYROM becoming a member at the Summit in Warsaw next year.”
At last check NATO rules allow for countries to VETO. Unless your re planning to rewrite the rules for all… Greece should continue to exercise its VETO indefinitely. If alleged “NATO” allies dishonorably continue to evade over obvious irredentism, or try to pressure Greece… Greece should leave NATO and find new allies that don’t attempt to ethnic cleanse their own allies.
I think you should go and make appointment with your doctor Greek! ASAP. So much hate and so big desire for violence I haven’t read lately. All your GEYHD friend compared to your writing looks like child play. On top of it you are so obsessive about using our capital’s name Skopje, that really amaze’s me.
Just for your information: since you mentioned US, newsflash for you: US has recognised Macedonia under its constitutional name and guess what: nobody was twisting their hand to do that.
We as Macedonian have been here for centuries and will continue to be so, like it you or not. Yes you as GEYHD are creating problems BIG time, and it hasn’t been only for us Macedonians, but for all of your neighbours (Turks, Albanians, Bulgarians Macedonians) and recently to the entire world (GEYHD screwed entire world economy, made known as world spoiled beggar and now have face openly to even write your name!?). Conflict character person, robber, murderer and liar is not good to have for a neighbour. But that’s our cross we have to wear and we as Macedonians will pray that good will prevail and things will start going better.
We will all happily recognize Palestinians as the real Jews Sewer. Neither Arabs not modern Jews can claim to be more related to ancient Jews right Mr. Principles?
As usual, anti-Greek bigots like Serwer “forget” to mention “minor” details like this about what they today ridiculously today claims as “Macedonians” (instead behaving like ethnic engineers of Soviet Union)
………..
This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.
The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of “Macedonian Forces” against Greece.
The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this subject which may come to your attention.
Department of State ”
(U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
Yet another provocation today. According to former Yugoslavians… and their unethical apologists that evade over their identity quick change into descendents of ancient Macedonians…, having conferences with provocative titles like this isn’t promoting irredentism.
“On Macedonian Matters: From the Partition of Macedonia in 1913 to the Present”, edited by Professor Victor Friedman and Dr Jim Hlavac.”
http://www.independent.mk/articles/16591/International+Scholarly+Conference+on+Macedonian+Matters+to+Take+Place+in+Florina%22
One wonder how former Yugoslavians would react if Greeks start funding conferences in Skopje discussing the “Partition of Greece in 1913”?
Points from 4-12 I respect your personal views and examples you bring forward as an argument to the name issue. However, your view tends to be banalized. I will give you an example that goes in the opposite way of your reasoning. When Great Britain applied for joining the EU (ex-EC) in 1973 France opposed on the name G.Britain because that name included the name of a region of France and at the end G.Britain was admitted with the name United Kingdom and not Great Britain. So Mr. Serwer the problem as you see isn’t banal. Greece had accepted a composite name (Slavo-Macedonia) for FYROM (unlike the French who didn’t even accept a composite name such as Great Britain for UK) which wasn’t accepted by FYROM. Using a name or cultural expressions of the Greeks in other countries make us honored (how many cities in the US are called Athens;;) with the difference that those countries recognise the provinience and they don’t try to “grab” as their own historical property by even gravely revising history as FYROMIAMs do with the Greek History. After all Alexander the Great says himself who he is:
“Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Hellenic Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians.”
― Alexander the Great-Ανάβασις ᾿Αλεξάνδρου Arrian
“Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers.”
― Alexander the Great-Ανάβασις ᾿Αλεξάνδρου Arrian
“Holy shadows of the dead, I am not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions.
[Addressing the dead Hellenes of the Battle of Chaeronea]”
― Alexander the Great
“If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Hellenes should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos…”
― Alexander the Great
Dear foreign ethnic cleanser,
in case you didn’t notice we call ourselves GREEKS. Our language is Greek. Our culture is Greek. Our country is called Greece. This is a reference not to ethnic Eskimos or ancient Mayans.. This is a reference to ancient Greeks. We see ourselves connected to ancient Greeks… in more than just name. And no we have not forgotten our Roman past we have just incorporated it into our nations narrative… where it rightfully belongs.
Dear Greeks,
Now that Skopians suddenly claim to be related to ancient Macedonians (effectively claiming to be the “real” Greeks under mental radar of the Greek hating bigots that supported them) these Greek hater are literally trying to narrate Greek outs of ethnic existence to hide their mistake of supporting Skopje.
Greeks foreign policy needs to be adjusted to deal not only with VMRO but with Skopje’s genocidal supporters.
“In a world with many more important issues, we should be trying towrap this dispute up and move on to other, more pressing matters”
Indeed. We should wrap up modern Jewish Daniel Serwer’s ridiculous obsession with claiming a relationship to ancient Israelites. Modern Jews only invaded area in the 20th century. They should give back the territory to the indigenous Palestinians. Obviously neither Arabs nor modern Jews can claim to be the original Jews (who disappeared a long time ago).
See how you sound Serwer.
Dear President Obama,
We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.
On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.
We believe that this silliness has gone too far, and that the U.S.A. has no business in supporting the subversion of history. Let us review facts. (The documentation for these facts [here in boldface] can be found attached and at: http://macedonia-evidence.org/documentation.html)
The land in question, with its modern capital at Skopje, was called Paionia in antiquity. Mts. Barnous and Orbelos (which form today the northern limits of Greece) provide a natural barrier that separated, and separates, Macedonia from its northern neighbor. The only real connection is along the Axios/Vardar River and even this valley “does not form a line of communication because it is divided by gorges.”
While it is true that the Paionians were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 358 B.C. they were not Macedonians and did not live in Macedonia. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians, who were subdued by Alexander, may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia.
Rather, Macedonia and Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc.
We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks.
Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles – the quintessential Greek hero – on their coins.
Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.
Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi, the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly, Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C.
Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.
Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.
The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?
The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?
The ancient Paionians may or may not have been Greek, but they certainly became Greekish, and they were never Slavs. They were also not Macedonians. Ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian Empire. So were Ionia and Syria and Palestine and Egypt and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Bactria and many more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”. The theft of Philip and Alexander by a land that was never Macedonia cannot be justified.
The traditions of ancient Paionia could be adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.
The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?
However one might like to characterize such behavior, it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability in the Balkans. It is sad that the United States of America has abetted and encouraged such behavior.
We call upon you, Mr. President, to help – in whatever ways you deem appropriate – the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
Sorry Daniel but you are wrong to believe that this naming issue has nothing to do with Greece’s national security. Dig a little further & you will find that every classroom in the FYR displays a map of “Greater Macedonia” which includes the Macedonian province of Greece wholly within their maps as one nation.
You also stated that the Americans & Mexicans don’t worry about “New Mexico”. Well, let me ask you this… If Mexico decided to change it’s name to ‘Texas” (or “Republic of Texas” if you prefer) with whom it boarders with, & in it’s classrooms right across the country depicted a map called “Greater Texas” which included the state of Texas within this map as one country, do you think you Americans would have a problem with it??
Exactly. Liars like Serwer unethically claim their is no evidence of irredentism when it is widespread and blatantly obvious.
No one would like it not Americans not anybody. The fact remains and it is fact there was only one macedonia and in 1903 greece borders were to mt olmpus that is the true greece as it was in the ancient days, then in 1913 London Berlin divided Macedonia between Greece Serbia and Bulgaria. The turks attest to this as they ruled macedonia. if Macedonia was greek and always greek then how do you explain this FACT. you cant and you cant say it was occupied as there is no evidence other than macedonia being divided so no matter how much greece tried to destroy any evidence of macedonian eg: river city lake names into greek they did not expect the people who they forced through torture to change there names into greek would to even this day 100 years on still declare themselves macedonian not greek and speak the same language that fyrom speak, that is no coincidence as this is way before as the greeks say tito created macedonia 25 years before which tells us fyrom adn the macedonia in northern greece are the same people same language same culture.
Sorry gorgios, you too are wrong!! Macedonia is a region in the Balkans but was never a country before or after 1903, that is fact & you know it… & the 2.5 million people living in the real Macedonia which is in Northern Greece speak Greek. Sure there may be a minority of Yugoslav’s there but they are not Macedonian’s of Greece, they are Bulgarian speaking ex-Yugoslav’s who want to be Macedonian.
Macedonians have always been Greeks. Macedonia wasn’s greek only when it wasn’t macedonian. Toponyms of Macedonia loud out its doubtless Greekness.
There is nothing in complaints by Greece that cannot be resolved and put to paper along with the name Republic of Macedonia. All the relevant points can be found in what Mr. Serwer’s enumerated here. Even more, Greek denying such a thing, in the context of what Mr. Serwer described in the US, and in the context of the nature of ancient Hellenic culture, would be against that very nature, today alive in the spirit of the US and the EU. The whole west is an ancestor to the spirit of the ancient Greeks. This is a petty dispute, nothing else, speaking of that how far members of the dispute are far away from the origins they aspire to.
“The whole west is an ancestor to the spirit of the ancient Greeks. ”
Sure buddy. Greek history belongs to USA… and USA history belongs to USA. Nice reasoning that.
Tell your empty narratives to dishonorable Greek hating bigots that today act like they don’t notice Skopje’s identity quick change into “ancient Macedonians” and irredentism.
Correction
“The whole west is an ancestor to the spirit of the ancient Greeks.”
The whole west is a descendant of the spirit of the ancient Greeks and Romans.
or
The spirit of the ancient Greeks and Rome are ancestors to the contemporary spirit of the US and the EU.
That’s the line Nazis used too champ. Every time someone other than Greeks themselves are framed as inheritors of ancient Greeks conflict is on the horizon.
If anyone other than Greeks actually saw themselves related to ancient Greeks… they would call themselves GREEKS troll.
Serwer obviously got a political agenda because the Greek hating bigot just edits out information he doesn’t like. He can’t tell the difference between something Macedonian and Bulgarian.
“Prior to the creation of a Macedonian republic in 1944,most Macedonian immigrants viewed themselves as ethnically Bulgarian and often referred to themselves as Macedonian-Bulgarians or simply Bulgarians.While immigration records failed to list Macedonians as separate category,approximately three-quarters of those listed as Bulgarians were from the regions of Kostur and Bitola in Macedonia.” – James R. Grossman, University of Chicago
“Macedonia’ (FYROM) was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The ‘Macedonian’ language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, almost certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted. Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these radical Slavic factions decided to live with their myths and lies” T.J. Winnifrith, “Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments”, Duckworth, 1995
“The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim”
“Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a Macedonian and who outspokenly and unambiguously called for Macedonian linguistic and national separatism, acknowledged that a Macedonian national identity was a relatively recent historical development.”
“The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.” – US Anthropologist Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995
etc..
I think mr serwer you should focus more on the fyrom-albanian problem as we see in recent events on the kosovo – FYrom border
I agree.
FYROMEAN Albanians (which alone form the 20% of the population as an ethnic entity) do not accept to be called “Macedonians” and the State they live in “Macedonia”. Things get tougher when you try to steal the identity of others.
We need to stop looking at this problem as just Skopje. The problem is Skopje… and those that back it.
The irredentism in Skopje is now blatantly obvious but many pretend not to notice. This effectively means they all know they aren’t Macedonians but were using Skopje as a proxy against Greeks. (aka racism)
This behavior needs to be called out and addressed on national level (with retaliatory measures against individuals and if necessary even any foreign government that lobby for Skopians)
As well GEYHD Albanians do not accept to be called Macedonians. Even a lot of GEYHD people don’t accept to be called Macedonians. Only Macedonians are calling them Macedonians. So what is not clear here?
The the Macedonian name of the city was and is Thessaloniki, not Solun.
We as Macedonians name it Solun, Serbs name it Solun, Bulgarian name is Solun, Montenegrian name is Solun, Croatian name is Solun, Slovenian name is Solun… dude, do I have to continue… for sure we could not influence all of them at the same time. One more time, just for you – Solun!
That’s why you are not Macedonians:
Alexander said Thessaloniki, Edessa, Aigai, Aiani,… Apparently he wasn’t Macedonian(?).
Hey SlavoSkopian, open your eyes: Macedonians said and say Thessaloniki, not Solun.
congratulations you just proved your a slav.
@peterI really waited some pinhead like you to respond in such way: “congratulations you just proved your a slav”
re: so also albanians who say Solanik and Turks Selanika are also slavs 🙂
And yes: we Macedonians are famous!
Proud to be one!
slaven=славен=famous
My comments are here: http://istormacedonian.blogspot.gr/2015/04/the-greece-macedonia-name-dispute.html
I think that something like “Republic of New Macedonia” should be acceptable to both sides.
Yes but then the adjacent adjective is clumsy. In contrary, if the name is ONE word, like Novomacedonia, the the adjective is natural: Novomacedonian. ( novo = new )
For all purposes.
Novomacedonia, Nova Macedonia, New Mexico, Montenegro or Crna Gora who cares.I know what you are aiming for, not having Macedonia standing alone in the name, would be ideal. It is really arguing about a comma (and not the Oxford one).
Although many Greeks official support the qualified name as compromise I personally do not. It will not work. Skopje will continue to attempt to usurp our history and use that to promote irredentism.
Goal of Greece should be either no use of name or partition of Skopje between various states. Foreign supporters of Skopje should be viewed as involved in act of agression against Greece. No excuses left to pretend not to notice Skopje’s attempts to usurp Greek history and use of name to promote irredentism.
🙂 Just for the sake of the argument: why this should be acceptable for Macedonians? Because Athens wants?
Macedonians are in Macedonia… Greece. Why should Macedonians accept former Yugoslavians living in ancient Paeonia using the name “Macedonia”?
Wow! Sure took you a lot of brain power to put it in a sentence. “Macedonians are in Macedonia! than three dots and than GEYHD (Greece, Elada, Yunanistan, Helas, Danaya) If you a paid close attention at your school classes, than probably you would realize that Paeonia is only land of the of Paeons, like Pelagonia is land of Pela, which again belong to the land of Macedonians.
Came on, do the chorus: Macedonians are in Macedonia x3
Because SlavoSkopians (and humanity) have to respect self determination right of Macedonians ( = the Greeks of Macedonia ) who came from Argos in Pindus sloaps and created, defined and glorified the name of Macedonia, 3000 years ago.
I just explained previously, but let me do it again: when you are addresed as “Slaven” in Macedonian it means that you are Famous, Glorified. So pretty foolish word Famous Skopians ( I presume you are talking about the Capital of Macedonia Skopje) is intended to talk about Famous people of Skopje? its kinnda ridiculous, don’t you think?
And second part, quote: “…have to respect self determination of Macedonians ( = the Greeks, Eladians, Yunanistanians, Helenics and Dorians of Macedonia)
Man, you do have a problem naming your country right. On top of it you need Macedonia, too?
Milan, self determination is a right but identity theft is not, it’s a crime. As for our determination, we are from Ellas, what others want to call us, Greeks, Yunanistan, Greci, etc is not our problem, it’s just what they call us in their native tongue, but for some reason you do not understand this.
What “Macedonian”????????!!!!!!it was in Slavic-Bulgarian language!! You call it “Macedonian” language with Cirilic characters and Bulgarian expressions???!!!!!!! or you have any objections that it wasn’t slavic???
Yugoslav communist authorities did this to them by oppressing all references to their Bulgarian past. Their “Macedonian” language used to be universally called Bulgarian prior Yugoslav communists modifying it and renamed it “Macedonian”.
Greeks get unfairly blamed for all this conscious propaganda by both Skopians the antihellenic Soviet Union style ethnic engineers that bizarrely recognized obvious Slavs as “ethnic” Macedonians.
Greece needs to start responding with hostility not only to VMRO but to any of VMRO’s foreign supporters. Work to dismantle their identities. This effectively what these antihellenic bigoted trolls have done to Greeks by acting like they don’t notice Skopje’s dangerous attempts to usurp our identity and irredentism.
he he he, looks like you have extra exclamation and question marks in your head so you need to put them anywhere without any order.
So pay attention here… M A C E D O N I A N language use Cyrillic azbuka… and yes it was produced in M A C E D O N I A. Not in Vulgaria you exclamation/question mark worshiper. In that time there is no Vulgaria but rather ONOGURIA
And yes I think Macedonian azbuka is very famous.
P.S. here is one very interesting question for you: Macedonian azbuka was created in Solun which you claim to be always GEYHD town. If so, why somebody (Kiril and Metodij) would invent it in Macedonian city in language that you dispute that exists instead using “divine” GEYHD language and letters? Would like very much to read your standing on this.
Wrong again Milan, ur language was invented in August 1944 by ur Bulgarian ancestors Krume Kepeski & Blaze Konexki. Read it, it’s all here were it explains that it’s all Bulgarian… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language
Can’t you make distinction between contemporary (used today with today’s codification) and the ancient one. Even your language used today is codified and different from the ancient one.
What Novamacedonia etc. in couple years time will be called Nova Albania or Eastern Albania or SlavoAlbania. So doesn’t matter how they call it today.
Again, so stupid statement from somebody who claims that love Macedonia; Territory of Republic of Macedonia is part of the ethnic territory Macedonia. So you have to be really retarded to glorify if part of Macedonia is renamed. But that just emphasize fact that GEYHD actually act as every robber; care for the loot until sold
A partial speech based on poor knowledge, poor understanding, failed analogies as examples, half-truths, manipulation of facts, lack of common sense, enough arrogance and self-delusion to imply that the speaker knows the DNA markers of ancient peoples when even professional geneticists don’t, a little bit of racism (why would you even get genetics involved in a political dispute?), and silence and denial on very current issues in the news. Was that Mr Gruevski speaking? The author clearly is not a top-quality academic but a man with a political agenda. However, for Harvard University to host such speeches, obviously, despite all of its wannabe keenness, America cannot offer the quality of an European education and cannot satisfy genuine love for learning but will have to stick to supporting and defending other failed wannabes like itself.
Serwer is obiously a Greek hating bigot with an agenda.
Virtually allo Skopje’s apologist unethically try whitewash their attempt to frame themselves descendents of ancient macedonians and irredentism. All history aside, it is precisely their behavior in present that made their prejudices. If these Greek hating bigots cannot truthfully report history in their own lifetime discussions on history
become moot.
These Greek hating bigots are literally trying to ethnic cleanse Greeks to hide their mistake of calling obvious conscious frauds “ethnic” Macedonians. (throu8gh side channel attack of deleteing our identity)
This is why Greece needs to start changing its foreign policy to have national level retaliation for Skopje supporters.
On an individual level, Skopje supporters should be permanently banned from stepping foot in Greece. Their interests should be undermined by all Greeks. If the are getting official support by a non-neutral foreign government, pull our diplomats and remove recognition of the country that supports Skopje in retaliation for their effectively removing recognition of Greeks.
I don’t think that Greece should isolate itself over this issue or any other. At the end of the day, Greece is right at the moment, even tough it was not necessarily so when the dispute started. But I do agree that people of that nationality should not be allowed on Greek territory because that country is actively being hostile towards Greece but also Bulgaria. Anti-neighbour propaganda is being actively promoted by the state officially: school books don’t even mention that the majority of the population is of Bulgarian descent, even though Ohrid was the capital of the first Bulgarian Empire. I don’t think there is place in NATO or the EU for such states. They choose to be the enemy, regardless of what they want to call themselves. Why don’t we allow Iran in NATO and the EU?
I don’t think that Greeks should behave like unprincipled cowards just because so many countries unethically evade to hide their mistake of calling them “Macedonians”.
We should take a principled position no matter what the odds and work outwards from there. That’s what Metaxas, Palaiologos and Leonidas would have done. That’s the Greek way. I would rather go down fighting for what I believe than live as a coward just to fit in.
If a country recognizes Skopje…..
A. If they don’t respect our property we should not respect their own. Any way we can undermine them economically and politically we should. (including causing further chaos with billions in foreign debt we owe)
B. Our government needs to consider using targeted use of force not against Skopje (too obvious) … but against key supporters of Skopje.
There is no need to announce it like the foolish glorious jihadists do — just get our security services to do the dirty deed quietly like the CIA and Mossad does it.
US state ideology tries to assert it is the world’s policeman (when it suits US interests of course). However, when NATO failed in its legal and moral obligation to protect fellow long time NATO ally Greece against non-NATO member Skopje’s aggression… Greeks earned the right to unilaterally defend our own sovereign country.
These people are trying to subtlety exterminate Greeks and that needs to be treated with extreme hostility. When words fail force unfortunately becomes the only option left. As long as its not freelance violence, the Greek state doesn’t target innocents, doesn’t resort to overarching terror tactics against the general public… state sanctioned force in self-defense from those supporting our extermination is a natural right.
Skopje’s apologists sundry moral narratives and crackpot pseudo-scientific racial theories about Greeks have absolutely zero say in the matter of our existence and identity. If they can’t truthful report events in their own lifetime everything they have to say about history is moot and should be ignored.
C. We undermine their ethnic and national existence by beginning long term work to destroy their identity in tit-for-tat retaliation for their behavior towards Greeks these last few years.
The way to accomplish this isn’t through force. It’s through ideology and demographics changes. The exact same racial impurity type arguments these incompetent Greek hating trolls have been using against Greeks should be applied to their own identities.
For instance It’s a documented historical fact Khazers converted to Judaism (see Khazar Correspondence). This has to become mainstream knowledge in established universities around the globe rather than written off as “antisemetic” conspiracy theories by extreme Zionists.
While Serwer fantasizes he is a pure racial descendant of ancient Israelites (behaving much like the fascists ironically) its blatantly obvious that modern Jews that from different regions are not derived from a single genetic stock.
Much like Greeks over the middle ages Jewish identity had a great emphasis on religion than genetics. It’s something most modern Jews like Serwer hide (note: not all modern Jews are intellectually dishonest manipulators like Serwer. Read up on Shlomo Sands who points out captain obvious)
D. We should support mass illegal immigration and refugees into their own nations to assist in deleting their identity.
This is precisely what manipulative unprincipled extreme Zionists like Serwer attempt to do to everyone’s country by framing it as “human rights” and “peace”… then switches tunes when it comes to Israel (which he wants to be a Jewish state!) On one side he claims it is human rights to support unrestricted refugees and illegal immigrants in other countries.. on the other he gleefully supports the expulsion of non-Jews from Israel.
Sadly Serwer meets the stereotype of the unprincipled Jewish schemer to a tee (also see Victoria Nuland for another example) but I don’t believe all Jews are like him. I am not a bigot because unlike ethnic cleansing negative stereotyping Serwer I am not a fascist. I am just working in self-defense against foreign aggressors trying to delete Greeks. If those foreigners stop ridiculously calling them
Macedonians, we should stop as well
However until then…only if Skopjian apologists get a taste of their own self-righteous medicine will they understand the enormous scope of the crime they tried to commit on Greeks. We should accept nothing less than complete retraction of recognition and a public apology. Anything less is not compromise. It is unprincipled cowardice and will not resolve this issue.
– for my dossier at the NSA archives
Is that a fact!? When we live in a age when human genome is decoded and evolution path of the human race is charted, we as Macedonians are still facing purely imbecilic claim that we can not be Macedonian. So again, if you truly want to claim your ancient what ever roots, than apply to Igenea or National Geographic Genome Project and knock yourselves out with the results. Probably after that you will like more human kind and less be xenophobic. After all, even the Big book says to love you neighbor…
P.S. Do you actually know the meaning of the word “racism”? Is it maybe situation when you call somebody names that openly he/she find offensive (fyromian, ex-yougoslav, skopian…) only because you think that you can? What do you think?
Blood and dna are not related to ethnicity: If you SlavoSkopians allow us Greeks to control your education system the way that Tito did, we will call you Macedonians. We will not change your blood, promise.
Alexander had no blood test to recognize Macedonians. He simply asked people where they were grown up. Just to know their “education”.
🙂 I really find your comment entertaining! Do continue with the good job.
Milan, I spoke directly with Roman Sholz from iGenea & asked if an ancient Macedonian DNA sample was used to compare it with the DNA of the people of FYROM & his answer was an explicit NO! So my question to u is, how can ur people claim to have Alexander’s blood running thru their veins if no DNA comparison was made? I also asked Roman if the people of FYROM have a similar DNA profile to the Bulgarians &/or Serbians & his answer was YES! I think u need to check out these results for yourself & ask Roman these same questions if u feel that I am not saying the truth.
Panamevris, I not only spoke with people from Igenea, but also participated into their projects. So i am pretty sure what is my haplogroup and to which primitive tribe my blood line belongs to, both with signature and stamp of Igenea 🙂 But this is not about me to convince you who am I or each of countrymen is, but rather suggesting you to do the DNA test for yourselves sand be clear know if you have ground for your claims or not. Lets the science do its work, for change, rather than stupid xenophobic talks.
P.S. In order to make link to Aleksandar you first need to have his DNA to compare with, or at least sample from his father Filip. As far as I know, no such discovery was made so far. If you know something else, please do share it with others.
Milan, thank you for making it clear & accepting the fact that there is no link between the people of FYROM (& urself) with the ancient Macedonian’s.
🙂 If that makes you happy. And my best regards to you and the people of GEYHD.
You are a lying ultra nationalit racist crackpot. Igenea is a for profit company and does not have its sundry claims peer reviewed. You just cherry picked Ignena because out of the dozens of companies they are the ones that told you what you want to hear.
Even as a layman I can tell the Igenea frames its results amounts to fraud. (trying to appeal to nationalists to confirm their identities by asserting percentages of this or that they claim they are — without scientific agreement as to what counts as the original base DNA materail)
In practice the largest peer reviewed genetics study into Skopjian DNA was conducted by Skopians own scientitsts. Here are the, unsurprising, results.
“A six-year long DNA research of the Balkan peoples conducted by Skopje Forensics Medicine Institute has showed remarkable resemblance among them. ”
“The analysis of the data has showed that residents of Macedonia have the most similar DNA with Bulgarians and Serbs
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2012&mm=01&dd=22&nav_id=78407
he he he! So whenever something doesn’t support your coo-coo GEY2HD delusion is clear lie.
Listen you son of a killers and evil people… don’t do the DNA test for me or any other Macedonian. Do it for your self to actually get into your thick head who you actually are.
Everything you did so far toward Macedonians is pure evil. By doing that, you actually fill yourselves with darkness and hate. Even your idea to send people with violence to end lives of other just because they do not agree with you is just describing you and similar to you how bad person you are. Shame on you!
Here’s what historians say about the Yugoslav’s of the FYR;
“It should be noted that there is NO CONNECTION between the ancient Macedonian’s of Alexander the Great who were related to other Greek [Hellenic] tribes…………………and the modern so-called ‘Macedonian’s of today of the Republic of Macedonia’ [FYROM], who are of Slavic origin and related to the Bulgarians.” (David H Levinson)
“The 20th century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, & its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history & politics, the Macedonian’s who have had no history, need one”
“The Macedonian’s are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs & Bulgarians”
“If the claim is based on ethnicity, it is an issue of a different order. Modern Slavs, both Bulgarian & Macedonian’s, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian Kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions – mostly émigrés of US, Canada & Australia – even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity” Eugene Borza.
Oh, I read in some of the post that even South Italy is from greek descendant. (I used lowercase ‘g’ intentionally).
I think that greek people are greatly affected by the internal propaganda taking place in their country as they are directed to think in certain way from earliest age. And that is not something to underestimate as it is well practiced and well deployed methodology with great success.
There are few shifts in public opinion in greece at given periods. One of which did not denied Macedonian culture, language etc. This period was from the Social-Comunist era, mid 10th century until 1990 when there’s been significant shift in policy towards Macedonia thus sudden propaganda shift in the newspapers, news, politics, interviews, talk-shows etc. etc. In an extremely short period the average Greek started complying with this new agenda, if that can be even considered as one. Now the majority of the Greek population is unanimous concerning this issue.
There are simply to many historical controversy to allow greece to lay claims over the name of Macedonia. Whether that be ancient history or more recent history.
Nonetheless, 51% of the occupied Macedonian (territory) land is in greece. The Macedonian minority there has been subject to brutal assimilation practices. Many of this Macedonian population has been forced out of it’s lands or even killed for that matter. The language has been prohibited as well.
Many of this forcefully banished people of their lands are still alive today and there are loads of testimonials on this subject. And whats even worse, after that many years of hard work to completely destroy the Macedonian population, one can still visit northern greece today and find people who speak Macedonian and identify them as Macedonians. Curious isn’t it?
And this is not exclusive to Macedonian minority but to every other minority such as Albanian, Turk, Italian, Vlachs etc. etc.
Now, this is real world problem. This is actual issue. Not a historical one. Not an ancient one. Not one that is read in the books but one that can be experienced in this very moment.
Every conscious Greek should realize that in this 21st century – when we as a humanity are uniting together and trying to globalize the world in order to address major issues affecting our planet and affecting our future, – should not accept such unclean dark agendas and clearly distance itself from it.
I deeply believe that greece’s allies in interest into this matter are reducing to none.
This non-unprecedented dispute will eventually be resolved in favor of the righteous, don’t we live in the world where we all believe that the justice prevails? If we know thats not true wouldn’t our hearts be broken forever?
We Greeks are affected by ‘propaganda’ of truth. Greeks have never denied Macedonian language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet Greeks have always called Macedonia as Macedonia: http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/MacedoniaTerm/index.html
Given that Skopje was Dardanian, Kossovian and Vardar capital, and Veles was Peonian capital, Greece has liberated about 85% of Macedonian land and restored all known ancient Macedonian toponyms there. The rest 15% of Macedonian land, namelly Pelagonia, is still occupied by FYROM. No Macedonian toponyms are restored there.
Whoever has HR problems in Greece may refere to ECHR. Greece will pay. Greece grants to SlavoSkopian (Bulgarian) minority what exactly they ask: Read, write, teach and learn Macedonian language. If they want something else they must ask it by name.
Greece cannot prohibit Macedonian language because we cannot distinguish it from new Greek speeking.
Given that Macedonians have always been Greeks, SlavoSkopians must liberate themselves from Underground’s propaganda and look for another name for their new ethnicity: Krushevian Republic.
“Greece cannot prohibit Macedonian language”
Greece does not prohibit your language troll. We just don’t recognize it as “Macedonian”.
The very fact you hide that it used to be widely considered a Bulgarian dialect prior to Yugoslav communist modification just further illustrates how dishonest fanatics like you are.
Calling your SLAVIC language “Macedonian” is like calling it “Athenian”. A ridiculous and dangerous attempt to promote irredentism against Greece.
No man, you do not have propaganda… you have a medical condition. I guess when “liberating” Macedonia you intentionally did ethnical cleansing and pushed out 300.000 Macedonians from liberated Macedonia throughout the world. Your hands as nation are bloody as hell. I glad you admit that changing the toponyms was done by you. At least you have to start with something. Something similar is happening today in Kosovo, where all Serbian toponyms are changed into Albanian. If you ask Albanians they’ll all say that they are returning the toponyms previously changed by Serbians.
P.S. One question: Why the name of your country in any of its forms has never been Greecia, Helenia, Eladia, Yunanistania? Maybe because “-ija” actually means something in Macedonian, like land, but does not mean anything in your language.
At the end GEYHD bankrupted person, do be very careful with you statements. “Greece will pay”:-) Those two words do not go into same sentence!
We have restored all know ancient Macedonian toponyms in the liberated part of Macedonia, as we see them inscribed on ancient stones. Why haven’t you restored any ancient toponyms in the occupied part of Macedonia? I mean where are Αταλάντα, Γορτυνία, Αλκομεναί, Ειδομεναί, Ηράκλεια, Ερίγων, Αξιός, Ορθόπολις, Παρορβηλία, …. ??
The 1870+ war about Macedonia did not start by us Greeks, but by you Bulgarians. We simply had to defend our Greekness against your brutal and atrocital attempt to slavicize Macedonia and Macedonians.
Isn’t it time for you to stop attempting to slavicize Macedonia and Macedonians?
Enough, damn it!!
You should read more of your history. Not “propaganda from Macedonia”, but your history. For instance:
1. Why Macedonian question is bothering GEYHD for more than 200 years if there is no Macedonian nation?
2. Why 1947 civil war in GEYHD was cause 300.000 people to be exiled from Macedonia governed by GEYHD and never to return back since they are not allowed?
3. All the time you are blaming Vulgarians as evil doers to Greece, but Tito created Macedonia? tip: Tito was Croat and Yugoslavia was separate country from Vulgaria. Vulgarians never allowed creation of Macedonian state.
4. Why in 1988 your PM changed name of the “Northern Greece” to Makedonia?
What you just have written is a subject of medical attention because not only is something which historically never happened in the numbers you claim but it is the opposite. Greeks were killed by thousands by the ottomans before 1912 and by Bulgarians in 1913 (which was also the cause of the Second Balcan war).So in 1913 and with the defeat of Bulgaria all Bulgarians who occupied Greek lands (that is you) have been kicked but to their lands (where they came from in the first place). So the slavic invasion of the Greek peninsula is known through the centuries and the Greeks liberated Greek inhabited lands (including Macedonia) from Slavic-Bulgarian and Ottoman occupation.
So what you are saying is that you don’t have problem with us but with the Vulgarians, right?! I would be glad to share your post to some Vulgarians 🙂 And, lets be civilized and clear about something: being racist is not OK. You can not tell me who I am.
Admitting being murderer actually does not make your nation hero. I am not judging you, but for sure tears and blood from all those my country man killed and expelled from their homes is actually drowning you nation down.
P.S. When you talk of Slavic you consider: 1. Serbians 2. Croatians 3. Bulgarians 4. Montenegrians 5. Slovakians 6 Czech 7. Polaks 8. Ukranians 9. Russians… Have to be more specific. Its kinnda foolish to use Slavic – Bulgarian as Slavic – Slavic or Slavic^2 🙂
P.S.2 I know that you don’t quite understand this, but meaning of the word Slaven is actually “the one who is Glorified”
Love how you frame Macedonia Greece as “occupied”. Especially love how sleezy apologists of Skopje ridiculous claim there is no evidence of irrdentism.
Hilarious that fanatics like you lecture about “propaganda” when you yourself are victim of your own nationalists propaganda. The vast majority of you are direct descendents of ethnic Bulgarians but you try to pretend you are related to ancient Macedonians.
Isn’t that in your own language and written in your own letters Vulgaria means Vulgar, right? Isn’t that the way you were describing Macedonians as vulgar (barbarians). Here is one catch: people who you referring as Vulagiars are actually Thracians. But, propaganda again…
Here is how we Greeks describe Macedonians http://www.starkrealities.com/fortune.html (aragraph 5).
Enjoy.
What would a Macedonian feel when reading that passage: pride, shame or disinterest?
@Milan. You said the following… “And second part, quote: “…have to respect self determination of Macedonians ( = the Greeks, Eladians, Yunanistanians, Helenics and Dorians of Macedonia)
Man, you do have a problem naming your country right. On top of it you need Macedonia, too?”
Milan, ur an imbecile, & that’s being polite. What part of this do u not understand. We call our country Hellas, we always have & always will. The Turks call it Yunanistan, the Germans call it Greichland, the Italians call it Grecia & the English call it Greece. We have not changed our name at all. It’s the others in the world calling us these different names due to the language they speak ok! Can u get that thru ur thick head??
And Macedonia is a state of Greece, not a separate country. George W Bush is from Texas in America. Does this make him an American or a Texan u numbskull? Does he say, “I’m a Texan, not an American”
I say I’m a Macedonian from Greece. Others say they’re a Spartan, Corinthian, etc… all from Greece. I’m sure FYROM has states too. Which one are u from??
Listen N. you don’t have to be upset 🙂 so what’s next: run to you daddy and tell ’bout somebody being honest to you and called you GEYHD. Being polite is human achievement, so basically that exclude your kind from start. i can tell for sure that you are racist and can not understand that right to self-determination is basic human right, but again we talk about things that you obviously have difficulties to understand. There i can not help!
Ask yourself, as small and bullied country by GEYHD, rest of the world call us Macedonia, Mazedonia, Makedoniya, Македонија… You call your country one name, others other totally non-related to the first one… Ups, I actually can see the contours of your Froidish behavior 🙂 and why you are so hysteric about our name.
Great you mentioned George W. Bush! He actually recognized Macedonia as Republic of Macedonia, our constitutional name.
Now, about thick head… i think you can do better! Give another try, but be more creative and descriptive.
Glad that you admit that you are Macedonian, as as far I care you can be even from China man, i.e. Macedonian from China. And by that, we are already same by the feelings we have about this most beautiful land and people… Being proud to be Macedonian!
As for Sparta, Corinth, Athens, Solun :-), Kozani, Lerin are cities. Next bigger thing is region, than territory… but that is the stuff you learn at second grade elementary school. Humm, again I see glimpses of Froidish behavior why you call us Skopians. I presume you refer to the Capital of Macedonia – Skopje. 🙂 there other cities in Macedonia as well, Bitola, Ohrid, Tetovo, Kumanovo, Shtip… So, on your marks, get set, GO!
You are not proud to be “Macedonian”. You are ashamed to be Bulgarian.
Virtually the entire population of Skopje is descended from people that freely self-identified as Bulgarians prior to Yugoslav communists renaming Vardar Yugoslavia “Macedonia”. Delchev, Gruev, Misirkov, IMRO et al… ethnic Bulgarians.
…and prior that we were T-rex dinosaurs, and prior that we were atoms of another star, and prior that we were part of the singular…
Man you are really limited edition of a being. I can not spend more of my time explaining that I don’t need you to tell me what I am, you mentally challenged racist. Its my right and only my and you can GEYHD yourself!
Visit an actual Macedonia, go to a museum, find some 12 year Macedonia child to read you the Greek inscriptions on ancient Macedonian artifacts… that clearly say THESSALONIKI. Alexander would have slaughtered anyone that tried to rename it “Solun”. Skopians aren’t pro-Macedonian. You are anti-Macedonians.
Blah blah blah! So I guess that why Aleksandar went south and slaughtered everybody in Thebes. As reward for this action he was named filhelen, Added value to this his monument standing tall in front of the main square in Athens. Or was location different?
For sure you are pro Macedonian! If I paid you and your GEYHD folks to advertise Macedonia throughout the world, we would have not achieved such result as you did with your imbecilic and racist claims.
Once more just for you – СОЛУН; SOLUN; SALONIKA; SELANIKA…
Open your eyes: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Thessaloniki_Filippou.jpg
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=138217
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=138220
Why doesn’t this ancient rock found in Macedonia have the word “Solun” or “Solunska” on it??
Proud Macedonians said and say Θεσσαλονίκη, Έδεσσα, Άργος, Ηράκλεια, Ανιτγόνεια, Αλιάκμων, Αξιός, … and not Solun, Voden, Hrupishta, Bitola, Negotino, Bistritsa, Vardar, …
Just 4u: Солун, Одеса, Хераклеа, Битола, Лерин, Воден, Кожани, Скопје, Кривогаштани
and even some GEYHD places like: Атина, Крит, Пелопонез…
See, that’s all Bulgarian to me. Sorry, I can’t read Bulgarian!!
Open your eyes: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Thessaloniki_Filippou.jpg
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=138217
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=138220
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Thessaloniki_Filippou.jpg
Milan, why doesn’t this ancient rock found in Macedonia have the word “Solun” or “Solunska” on it??
Do you know in what language Apostle Paul (1st century AD) wrote his Epistole to Thessalonians?? in Greek (as a matter of fact Macedonian or Hellenistic Greek-lingua franca). Do you know why?? because as Macedonians would have understood only Greek and nothing else. Paul calls Thessalonians the inhabitants of Thessaloniki and not Solun and all the other nonsence.
..and what is this script and letters and what language is according to you???if not slavic?? what connection have these words you wrote with the ancient Macedonians???NONE. Who gave this alphabet and language to the barbaric hords of Slavs that ended up inhabiting the Balkans?? and who made them Christians??I don’t think you are serious if you don’t interrogate yourself with a minimum of historic background and sence of responsible opinion. The subject of ancient Macedonians and what has followed as propaganda of Skopje started really in 2000 and on. Before that not even Glycorov could connect Scopje with ancient Macedonia and Macedonians.
MIlan how many “Macedonians” were counted in the ottoman census in the 19th and early 20th century in the Salonika and Monastir Vilayets?
not my problem that u r dumb. GEYHD has that problem
@Panos Good you brought this! Ask any of the Serbians, Bulgarians, Montenegrians Albanians, Turks (yes there are also Christian Turks and Albanians) what is written in their Bible.
And, what do you think, when all this territory was govern by Rome, what language was spoken? Latin perhaps?! And look into your history books that Macedonia was divided in Roman times into 4 parts and not your country.
Daniel 11:4
After he comes, his kingdom will be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority he had, for his kingdom will be plucked up and given to others beside those.” Sounds familiar, you thief?!
Back to your “coo-coo” theory: Try to explain to yourself why in clear mind somebody who was “helenic” would go to learn totally unknown language to him, prepare alphabet and teach on their language the Holy book?!
Even today you are not allowing anyone in your country to learn mother language, but repress them with stupid racist idea that only official language of GEYHD can be tought.
Face it man, you are so brought as racist and egocentric sob that you think that every fracking thing on this earth starts with you. Do the gene test and see where you come from!
P.S. The wave is coming to wash all your sins, but those without spirit can not see the next day.
Nice try Milan, but why do you not quote this part of the bible in it’s entirety so as people can see what ur on about. The bible is referring to Alexander the Great as can be seen in Daniel 10:20…
10) 20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Now I must return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I am through with him, the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I am to tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth. There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince.
11) 1 As for me, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood up to support and strengthen him.
2 “Now I will announce the truth to you. Three more kings shall arise in Persia. The fourth shall be far richer than all of them, and when he has become strong through his riches, he shall stir up all against the kingdom of Greece. 3 Then a warrior king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion and take action as he pleases. 4 And while still rising in power, his kingdom shall be broken and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not to his posterity, nor according to the dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be uprooted and go to others besides these.
Nice try cherry picking Milan but in this case (as you try to hide), the bible is referring to the “Prince of Greece” Alexander & not the prince of Yugoslavia!!
N. you don’t comment on the topics but put more stuff into conversation just to loose context. if you plan to have the conversation do answer first parts from my previous post.
P.S. Prince of Greece 🙂 you are 110% GEYHD! Aleksandar was Prince of Macedonia than as all conquerors, territories he governed was part of his title. Even nowadays you can see in the titles of kings and queens… But first respond to topics first brought.
Your a moron Milan. I am commenting on the topic that u brought up, namely the bible & you got caught out once again. It states Alexander as being the prince of Greece, prince of Macedonia is not mentioned anywhere in Daniel’s versus of the bible. So, u got caught again for miss quoting text & taking snippets out of context just as typical Yugoslav’s do… You are therefore 110% Brainwashed Yugoslav!!
The Roman Republic (509 BC-14 AD)later Empire never imposed an official language such as Latin to be spoken in the Empire because almost the totality of the Roman World in the East and North-East (from the Balkans to Middle East, Southern Mediterranean (including Southern Italy, Southern France and Spain) and East-Northern Africa the diffused language spoken and written was Greek due to the Greek colonies already in existense since the 8th century BC and later Alexander’s Empire (Hellenistic Period started in the 4th century BC)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/AntikeGriechen1.jpg
http://pixgood.com/ancient-greek-colonies.html
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/37/1037-004-D7F10716.jpg
2) All rich Romans in Rome spoke and wrote in Greek (Lingua Franca-Alexander’s diffused language) also for intellectual prestige. Official Latin was used in the Senatorial Eddicts (translated also in the local language) in the extreme Western and Northern European Provinces of the Roman Republic while Greek was used for the rest of the Roman provincial possessions.
3) When the Republic became Empire (Emperial rule 1th century AD-5th century AD) a number of Emperors such as Nero, Andrian, Marcus Aurelius etc. imposed as an official language of the Empire the Greek language while the Western part of the empire started speaking in its totality latin, the Eastern part of the Empire was speaking only Greek.
4) During the Hellenistic Period the Old Testament was translated (by the 70s of Alexandria-Egypt)to Greek since the people following the Jewish Religion by majority were assimilated to Greek culture and language while most of them had difficulties with the Aramaic.
5)In 1st century AD, the New Testament (Godspels, Acts, Epistles, Revelation) was written by its authors directly in Greek with the exception of the Godspel of Matthew which was written initially in Aramaic. So Christians in the Greek world of the Roman Empire and later in the total Empire spoke, read,and worshiped in Greek. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire (5th century AD) progressively the Christian Church of the West started to introduce Latin in its everyday worship and dealings while the entire Balkans and the East remained with Greek. All this Thanks to the Greek Colonies and especially thanks to Alexander the Great.
After the 5th century AD the Eastern Roman Empire had as official language only Greek (translated to Latin for the dealings with the West). From the 8th century AD and on the Eastern Roman Empire (called now Byzantine Empire) was transformed in effect to a Greek Empire thanks to the predominence of the Greek culture, language and majority Greek and fully Hellenized populations.
So nobody by the 1st century AD (the century of the Apostolic Christianity) could read or write in any other language except Greek in the Roman Province of Macedonia (I say Roman just to differentiate with the ancient kingdom of Macedonia and its expansion
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg )
Therefore the Apostole Paul(Jew, Roman Citizen and Greek cultured man) wrote to Thessalonians (Macedonians) in their language which was Greek. In addition he wrote to the Romans, First Corinthians Second Corinthians,Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians (Macedonians, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Philippi_location.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/P46.jpg )
Colossians, First Thessalonians, Second Thessalonians (Macedonia http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Thessaloniki-ancient_inscription.png,)
First Timothy,Second Timothy, Titus,Philemon
Panos, but for sure I can rely on everything you put here. At least you are contemporary of all of those events.
Apostle Paul was a great traveler back than, won’t you agree? His land was under Roman governance, as well Macedonia. So you now say that he spoke Greek (;-) for sure you mean koine or the common language, right?) and not the language of the empire. OK, lets just for the sake of your claims say its 100% true.What language he spoke to the common people when he went to Rome? Koine again?
C’mon, I know its hard, but do engage a bit logic in your claims. …and of course, stop writing essays… this is forum, not conference where you shine with your wisdom.
Paul wrote his Epistles in Greek to the various churches so as to be read out loud to the faithful since he couldn’t be present. This way, he spiritually continued to support the faithful after he has visited them. Paul in his visits made his speeches in Greek as he did with his Epistles (Letters) to the same people he visited. It would have been nonsense to speak to the same churches’ faithful in different language from that he used in writing. Since the Scriptures were originally written in Greek the Christians had to understand Greek and they actually did. In fact, a visit to the Catacombs in Rome confirms what I say (I live in Rome) since a great number of inscriptions are in Greek. The Catholic Church until the 7th century AD used Greek in Liturgy after that have gradually changed to Latin (in full Latin after the Scism 1054 AD) since the new populations of Italy ( Francs, OstroGoths,Longobards, etc) adapted Latin as their language. However, we were talking about Thessalonians and Philipians (who were Macedonians) and their culture, everyday language and heritage was Greek. Paul makes references in his Epistles to their Greekness. Although we know from his biography and from Acts that Paul could speak Hebrew, modern scholarship suggests that Koine Greek was his first language. If you read The Acts of the Apostles 17 reads:
ΠΡΑΞΕΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ 17 SBL Greek New Testament (SBLGNT)
17 Διοδεύσαντες δὲ τὴν Ἀμφίπολιν καὶ [a]τὴν Ἀπολλωνίαν ἦλθον εἰς Θεσσαλονίκην, ὅπου [b]ἦν συναγωγὴ τῶν Ἰουδαίων. 2 κατὰ δὲ τὸ εἰωθὸς τῷ Παύλῳ εἰσῆλθεν πρὸς αὐτοὺς καὶ ἐπὶ σάββατα τρία διελέξατο αὐτοῖς ἀπὸ τῶν γραφῶν, 3 διανοίγων καὶ παρατιθέμενος ὅτι τὸν χριστὸν ἔδει παθεῖν καὶ ἀναστῆναι ἐκ νεκρῶν, καὶ ὅτι οὗτός ἐστιν [c]ὁ χριστός, ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὃν ἐγὼ καταγγέλλω ὑμῖν. 4 καί τινες ἐξ αὐτῶν ἐπείσθησαν καὶ προσεκληρώθησαν τῷ Παύλῳ καὶ τῷ Σιλᾷ, τῶν τε σεβομένων Ἑλλήνων [d]πλῆθος πολὺ γυναικῶν τε τῶν πρώτων οὐκ ὀλίγαι.
The Acts of the Apostles
Chapter 17
17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
AS you see in Thessaloniki (Roman Province of Macedonia) Paul met the Jews and ” ….and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few”. Which clearly shows the ethnicities he met in Macedonia.
Panos, I am sorry, but as person who live in Rome and probably speak Italian, you would definitely avoid using word Greca (fret).
Which brings me to an old proverb used in Macedonia
“… he complains like Greek in Turkish prison” used for person who whines a lot. Hmmmm… a lot of truth hides here…
Regarding St. Paul and Christianity: Person who was Hebrew, and Roman citizen spoke in Rome in Greek koine since he did not knew Latin. Wow… and the 12 points go to Panos!
OK, OK let’s say that this is true and all Roman empire spoke and was preaching Christianity in greek! Check!
600 years later, an unthinkable amount of people came from Carpathian (Slavs, right), and screwed everybody on their way but were stopped by the mighty whatever of greek(s). Check!
Than some 100 later, again greeks scholars created new alphabet (first Glagolica that Cyrillic, FYI) and preached the bible in totally unknown language to greeks, because this was… IN thing to do?!
So in the mean time, Gospel was translated from Greek to Latin and Greek totally abolished from all churches under jurisdiction from Rome, because… because! Check!
If this makes sense to you than for sure you tell good stories.
In the mean time, do visit this youtube link and just for short open your mind, and do learn something about the history… It is produced in eliniki language by your TV station.
https://youtu.be/M99ze151HvA
Enjoy!
Milan Your basic error (which I try to prove to you with many examples) is that you confuse the ancient world and its ethnical structure (structured mainly in cities, thus City states including Rome which started as a City-State and ended up an Empire) with the today’s States and their predominant Ethnicities. Ancient Macedonia was full of Greek cities (rather autonomous)that made up the totality of what is known as Ancient Macedonia which occupied the territory of the northeastern part of the Greek peninsula. The Roman Province of Macedonia (established the 148 BC) incorporated the Ancient Macedonia, with the addition of Epirus, Thessaly, and parts of Illyria (Illyris Graeca-used to define an area now in modern Albania north of the Aous valley ), Paeonia and Thrace. This created a much larger administrative area, to which the name of ‘Macedonia’ was still applied (not coincident to the original territory of Ancient Macedonia). The Dardanians, to the north of the Paeonians, were not included, because they had supported the Romans in their conquest of Macedonia.
I didn’t expected this… GEYHD person to start talking some sense. Don’t ruin your positive grade with some stupid comment…
Now, yes… that is exactly my point… people leaving in the cities throughout the ancient world were people who belonged different tribes, different races etc… In the Mediterranean area were people from old jewish tribes, Persians, Phoenicians, Ionians, Danaians, Trachinas, Macedonians, Turks, Illyrians, more known and unknown tribes which are the fore-fathers of us being here today. A lot of armies has passed trough here and it is imbecilic to think that pure arian blood line can be establish from the time of Makedon, Philip, Aleksandar etc. till today. Its like your folks will claim that the alphabet used today was not invented/used by Phoenicians.
And, one thing you should be aware of… Macedonians never had Greeks for neighbors. They had the “Eleni”. In Macedonian “elen” means “deer” (yes the animal and not in negative context).
P.S. I don’t agree that peninsula was ever called Elenik, but Macedonian 🙂
It is known from historical sources and research that Apostle Paul spoke for sure Aramaic, Greek (being born in a Hellenized Area and studied mainly the stoics) and maybe but not for sure Latin even if he and his ancestors were Roman citizens (many Roman citizens of the East didn’t know and didn’t speak latin but only Greek or Aramaic or both). Paul spend most of his time in the Hellenized parts of the Roman Empire and he was called the apostle of the Gentiles (apart the Jews). Paul was the artifice in spreading Christianity among the Gentiles while Peter taught only the Jews. Paul made his last trip to Rome were he found his martydom together with Peter in the Reign of Nero. He spoke to the Christians in Rome in Greek since most of them knew the language. Besides all prominent Roman Society had Greek education and spoke Greek. This was also an expression of intellectual prestige among the Greek speaking Romans. In addition, for the Romans “Graecia” (and the old Greek world)was formed of Achaia, Epirus, Macedonia and Illyris Graeca (in Latin). In fact Graecia was governed by the Senate and locally were appointed 4 Pro-Consuls for each area.
I didn’t understand your proverb’s connection with me.
Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional-historical, Haemus-Hellenic ancestors.
FYRoM Slavic-speakers are not Macedonians, at least not in the Greek sense of that word…so they should distinguish themselves – clearly and definitively!
Linking themselves to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity, is an insult to the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative.
It is sad for a person who beside his mother language, learned English too, cannot understand that process of learning and self-determination can not be imposed but adopted. I spend my time writing this not hoping that you and your countryman will understand that north of you is a small nation who knows nothing else but that is Macedonian and loves deeply his nation, country, history. You had that chance since in the last 200 years since The Macedonian question exists. It is clear that you really hate every bit of us and would be happiest if we vaporize in thin air. But that is not the case only reserved for us, but also for the Turks, than Albanians potentially Vulgars… So, its not about us man, but the mess is your head. That makes you racist!
You speak about history, about events that happened 2-3-10000 ago but do not dare to make DNK test and see that 99,9% of the human genome is match. Until you do that…
Just to insult you once more… yes Aleksandar was Macedonian and I am proud to be one. МАКЕДОНИЈА!!!
“self-determination can not be imposed but adopted”
But it should be respected. We, the Greeks of Macedonia (proper), have been self determinamed as Macedonians 3000 years ago: http://www.network54.com/Forum/415923/message/1133187902
Therefore ONLY Greeks could be self determinated as Macedonians.
Because Greeks created, defined and glorified the name of Macedonia.
Check your recent history Istor. In the year 1988 was the first time you ever named the North Greece as Macedonia. until than was Northern Greece. Since you are pretty young to remember this, I do recommend to go and check when this was done. Or not and play stupid as you brilliantly perform.
Macedonian and proud to be one!
Open your eyes: http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/MacedoniaTerm/index.html
Milan, the as you call it the “Macedonian Question” exists since 1946 and not before and it is raised during the Civil War in Greece (1944-49) by Tito for Communist expansion reasons. However, Tito never claimed the history of Ancient Macedonians that was done by FYROM in the late 1990s. Glycorof himself said that your part of the World was Slavic and had nothing to do with Ancient Macedon (1992 public conference of Glycorof). Greeks don’t defend names as you have said but their History and Heritage. Many in the World use the names of ancient Greek Cities and Areas but they do honoring Greek History. Athens Georgia USA never claimed to be Athenians but they use the name
Not really Panos. Struggle for independent Macedonia from Otoman empire was in the same time as for all Balkan countries. But unlucky for us, we did not had any of the great powers to stand and support us. You had Austo-Hungary and Germany, Vulgaria had Russia, as well Serbia, and Albania was directly produced by the Austro-hungary efforts to weaken Russian position in the peninsula. As a result to this were bloodbath atrocities in a 2 consecutive Balkan wars, which initiated even bigger one the first WW.
And, just for the sake of the conversation do not use ridiculous acronym FYROM since it offends me.
When we are on public statements in the census of 1925 in your country, your government have clearly stated separate column Macedonian language. So what does it means, you did recognized our individuality to again retire to denying positions?!
For the sake of the argument I think we have never and will never have problem on anything which is with prefix “greek”. But everything that had prefix Macedonian, is problem for you. On the other hand, you keep mention Yugoslavia. It is quite curious why your country had never ever had any remark on our name back than which was Socialist Republic of Macedonia for ½ century period?!
Macedon is Greek Kingdom. Greeks live there >3 Millenniums. Macedonians are Hellenic on this basis.
Lest we forget: Macedonians never lived in FYRoM, never met Slavs, never spoke Slavic.
Those who indulge FYRoM, calling the place Macedonia, calling the peoples there Macedonians…just prolong the longevity of the name dispute.
History cannot support two versions of the Macedonia story – one pseudo and Slavic, and the other one, mainstream and Hellenic.
Agreed:
1. Macedonians live in Republic of Macedonia.
2. Macedonians are Macedonians.
3. There is no name dispute: Macedonians do not have problem with the name “Macedonia” – GEYHD has!
4. You forgot to take your pills today!
Ancient Macedon was entirely situated in the northern territory of the Greek Peninsula as is today by the 5th century BC. In later years expanded by conquest versus Illyria, the southern part of today’s FYROM, eastwards in Thrace calling them “Territories of Macedonian kindom. Successively, Alexander the Great conquered the Persian Empire adding more territory to the kingdom. The Roman conquest brought major changes for administrative reasons creating a new Macedonian Province under Senatorial guidance which was greater in territorial terms compared to ancient Greek Macedon incorporating parts of Illyria, Paeonia, Thessaly, and Thrace. The Byzantine and latet the Ottoman Empires concerved the name and the territory as the Romans had divided. This the major error we do today naming Macedonia the territory designed by the Romans not by the ancient Macedonians. The Greeks in 1913 freed the territory that was basically coinsident to ancient Macedon (which ethnically and historicaly in populated majority was Greek) and they didn’t proceed further north.
Macedonia was always north of GEYHD. Actually, when Aleksandar the Macedonian went south he concurred entire region of Peloponez and went east to spread the Macedonian Kingdom.
in 1913 after the 1st Balkan war, GEYHD together with Vulgaria and Kingdom of Serbs divided theritory of Macedonia, which later on was another reason for the 2nd Balkan war.
Most of todays inhabitants in occupied Macedonia have come from Turkey after exchange of population
Milan look at the map of Ancient Macedonia and its evolution through the centuries in the Balkan Peninsula. Ancient Macedonians conquered half what it is today FYROM (Paeonia-Dardania in antiquity)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg
Alexandros fought wars against certain City States in the South of Greece but this was usual among the Greeks to fight each other for dominance. In Peloponese Alexandros never made wars or conquered anything. He went to Corinth (Panhellenic Counsil) to ask the Lacedaemonians to join him in his campaign against the Persians and the Spartans refused because they wanted to lead the campaign. In 1913 Greece freed its own territories and never went further North. Don’t confuse (as many do) the Ancient Macedon with the Roman Province of Macedonia because in territorial and ethnical terms have nothing to do with each other.
Well, it is clear that we have two different understanding for this period. Aleksandar can not be “filhelen” if he was of helen origin. It would be like if I say Panos the filhelen. Would be utter BS, right?!
But not to spend to much words on this, let’s agree that we disagree 🙂
Milan do you know Greek? do you know the meaning and the use of the appellative “Philhellene” in the ancient years? I think no because you wouldn’t have written what you wrote. Panos is Pilhellene because I believe that I am a Greek Patriot. At least the rest of the Greeks in ancient times would have call me that if I was a known Patriot as Alexander was.
From Wiki (Philhellenism):
“…..In antiquity, the term ‘philhellene’ (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος – philos, “dear one, friend” + Έλλην – Hellen, “Greek”[1]) was used to describe both non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture and Greeks who patriotically upheld their culture. The Liddell-Scott Greek-English Lexicon defines ‘philhellen’ as “fond of the Hellenes, mostly of foreign princes, as Amasis; of Parthian kings[…]; also of Hellenic tyrants, as Jason of Pherae and generally of Hellenic (Greek) patriots.[2]…..”
http://www.philhellene.com.au/
Don’t confuse the term “Philhellene” used in the 19th century and on denoting the love for Greece from the Europeans that help the Greeks during their revolution (1821). In the ancient years the appellative “Philhellene” was used to honor both Non-Greeks and prominent Greeks.
Besides Alexander already had stated who he was through his own words:
1) “Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Hellenic Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians.”
2) Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers.
As quoted in the Historia Alexandri Magni of Pseudo-Kallisthenes, 1.37.9-13.
3) “Holy shadows of the dead, I am not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions.
[Addressing the dead Hellenes of the Battle of Chaeronea]”
― Alexander the Great as quoted in Historiae Alexandri Magni by Quintus Curtius Rufus.
…..by the way what is GEYHD????????????’
acronym of all names used to describe your country… Greece, Ellada, Yunanistan, Helenic, Danaia, and recently I learned that jews call your country Yavan so to be correct I would have to change the acronym into GEY2HD 🙂
Yunan, Yavan etc. for your information is Ionia or Ionians (the Greeks of Ionia in Asia Minor)
This “Geyhd” bullsh#t is not official Milan, it’s only official in ur brainwashed head & others alike, whereas “FYROM” is official & the 2nd letter stands for “YUGOSLAV”… that sais it all!!
@N. Pana-what-so-ever:-))) I do enjoy communicating with pinheads like you N full stop
So you are not addressed as: Greece, Ellada, Yunanistan, Yavan, Helenic, Danaian = GEY2HD!? And it is only your divine right to use acronyms?! And if you use acronyms, it must be official?! And acronym FYROM is official and not the entire stupid name of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia!? LOL
You see, when you, GEY2HD something, have one gray cell stretched across your empty head just to hold your ears not to fall apart, it is impossible to expect some thinking process to happen. But please do continue…I have’t laugh like this for a while
OK, now comment on the term Philhellenism and what Alexandros says on who he is don’t change the subject.
In addition, the name Paeonia (and you Paeonians) is only a misleading alternative name because historically you Skopians aren’t even that. The problem is that you don’t accept your slavo-bulgarian origins and you search for something more noble.
FYRoM is not Macedon. FYRoM is Paeonia…and then Dardania north from Skopje.
FYRoM ex-Yugoslavians are not Macedonians…not in the Greek sense of that word.
Macedonians have always been a Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples…a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock.
Therefore, FYRoM cannot use the name of an ancient Greek Kingdom for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Why?
Because Hellenic Macedonians wont let them.
Macedonians have UN recognized right(s) to keep as Greek as possible, the identity characteristics of their regional historical Haemus Hellenic ancestors.
Slavic speakers from FYRoM – Show respect!
Greece has already proposed alternative names for FYROM that acceptable. An example is “Northern Macedonia” or “Republic of Northern Macedonia”.
However, FYROM does not wish to agree to a solution with a geographical qualifier. And why is that? If you can answer this question without bias, then you can really understand what this dispute is about and what are the intentions of Greece and FYROM.
*FYROM is how the country is recognized under the UN.
Greece has been plagued by corruption for decades. Enough is enough. Time to stand for principles and admit our mistakes.
Even calling the former Yugoslav region of Vardar “FYROM” was a huge mistake. Given the behavior of Skopians… and their supporters.. the offer for a compound name should be off the table.
Even if some Greek government dejour agrees to some deal forced on it by foreign coercion it is an invalid agreement (not to mention Greeks that care about Hellenism put it above government policy and certainly above foreign nationalist agendas)
No Macedonia in the name of Skopje. Period.
The Slav propagandists cannot be trusted with the name. Compromise will not work. Skopje made their choose to commit national suicide when they started to promote irredentism against Greece. We should polish them off by working towards dividing the country between Bulgaria and Albania.
IN addition not only should be destroy Skopje but any foreign governments that stand in the way of that goal should also have their national identity targeted for eradication for colluding with them.
This IMRO should include the sundry assimilated ethnic groups that shamed their own actual ancestors by instead claiming to be a non-existent “Americans”. IMO the US is due for a downsizing in influence since they no longer defend western civilization and have instead turned to mysticism.) Support China. They stick to their borders, care about Hellenic classics, and aren’t mystic crackpots.
After reading the comments i have two remarks i would like to make to my greek and macedonians friends.
To greeks: The majority of the slavic nations now reside in fyrom were once living in the greek part of macedonia, but they were kicked out of their homeland during the bulgarian wars. 100 years ago they lived in our macedonian territory and they were considered macedonian. Now apparently after been kicked out they cant name themselves as that. Sorry people but this is major BS. If you live in macedonia for 1500 years and then you are forced to leave, you are still consider as one, even if you dont like it.
to macedonians: your claims are true but your current country is only a small part of what macedonian territory once was. Its undoubtful that parts of greece, parts of fyrom and parts of bulgaria where included in that province. Now naming your country simply as ”macedonia” is not accurate for two reasons, geografically its incorrect and there also greek people who are also macedonians. Something like ”new macedonia” or ”northen macedonia” is more correct.
After reading the dispute i have one last thing to say. There are greek macedonians and there are slavic macedonians. Before the wars they lived together. Now they are 150km apart(lol). Is that so hard to admit that they are no true macedonians and we are both?
As a Greek let me respond to your comment.
A. you are not at friend of Greeks if you call them “Macedonians” You are patronizing bigot that refuses to accept
that Greeks understood the situation better than you. Arabs have been in the region of Israel for over a thousand years. they don’t ridiculously attempt to claim Arabic is actually Hebrew and that they are the “real” Jews.
B.Greeks also lived in Macedonia troll. What of their rights?
C. The Slavs were not kicked out from Greece because they were Slavs. They were kicked out because they attempted to annex Macedonia first to Bulgaria and then to Vardar Yugoslav.
D If you had an ounce of moral credibility you would mention that both the US and UK not only claimed they don’t existence as an ethnic group but even helped us kick them out of Greece(both during WW2 when they colluding with Nazis -see Ivan Mihalov and latter as communists – see Greek civil war)
To this day these crypto fascist clowns continue these Macedonian word games with us as a form of irredentism while patronizing morons that feel for it lecture us. For as long as they do we will be hostile not only towards Skopje but will begin to be hostile towards those that ignored our legitimate concerned by ridiculously calling them Macedonians.
The *ONLY* way they would be accepted as Macedonians if they become part of the Greek nation (essentially assimilation what some foreigners offensively frame as a conspiratorial Hellenization) It our choice if we want to accept them not yours. We don’t offensively lecture you as to how to run your country and who you should accept.
Bizarrely asking us to recognize them as “Macedonians” is like asking us to ridiculously recognize them as ethnic Athenians. Without accompanying Greek culture we will never accept them as Macedonians and this issue will continue to be a perpetual source of instability int he balkans. It has nothing to do with racism. it has to do with preserving Greek culture.
Unfortunately most of those that call obvious Slavs “Macedonians” obviously can’t tell the difference between something Macedonian and a potato. Not only are they not “pro Macedonian” they are defacto anti-Macedonian. Those that are pro-Macedonian would support the Macedonians of Greece.
A) It just that i have to call them something, i didnt know that ”macedonian” was a taboo word in greece. All the world calls them macedonians anyway. So stop been butthurt.
B) They should have the same rights, macedonia was multiculture for only 2000 years you know. What is greek position on this matter? Macedonia is not only greek, like you claim.
C)No it was an population exchange, slavs left while greeks took there place. They left violently because they lost the war and they were slavs.
D) Political nonsense, it just happened because greeks where on their side.
You sound way more fascist than those ”clowns”. Just discard all your patriotic nonsense and make a proper research on the matter. Then you can answer me why greeks feel so threatened losing there precious macedonia.
Ah. Victoria Neuland. She’s another disingenuous modern Jewish fanatic (quite possibly of Khazar origin) that works at US State Department. An expert at manipulating human rights lingo like you Serwer.
When she and her uber-violent neo-con husband, aren’t pretending their motives for justifying mass homocide for non-existent WMDs is “human right” she spins her agenda as US patriotism.
This is the same “human rights” activist that supported the violent overthrow of a pro-Russian Ukrainian government too right? The “human rights” activist that got caught on tape saying “F-ck the EU”!
And of course the same “human rights’ activist that tries to convince simpleton Biden into taking a hard line with Greeks for upcoming NATO summit right?
Do not think because most of US media are cowards that are afraid of being slandered as “antisemitic” for reporting what appears to be a cabal of unethical extreme Jewish nationalists working in the US government… that others don’t notice.
As I child when I first learned about WW2 Nazi atrocities I was horrified. I was particularly sympathetic to the misery that mostly Jews went through in concentration camps. The most memorable nightmare of my life I had was a dream where I was being chased by Nazis. Everywhere I turned everyone acted like they didn’t know notice what was going on. What was almost as bad as the Nazis, were those that acted like they didn’t know the Nazis were trying to erase them because of course it wasn’t their own problem.
I don’t buy the line that Jews are completely innocent scapegoats during WW2. In every major conflict there are always two sides provoking each other. This isn’t about moral relativism. Wars are different than bad judgement by a single individual. Its long term provocations by large numbers of from both competing groups before it eventually comes down to war.
Nevertheless the Nazis form of government and industrial scale atrocities defined them as evil and cruel a group as any in recorded history. No one, no matter what they have done wrong, should ever have to go through such horrors. (even the Nazis themselves albeit they thoroughly deserved to be quickly slaughtered for their inhumanity given no other choice)
As I got older though every time I would read about conflicts that involved Jews it was always narrated that Jews were the victims and the “goys” (as if the rest of us are all the same) always the perps. Always black and white good and evil. This of course is nationalist nonsense.
Jews, in their various incantations of what constitutes a “real” Jew during sundry historical periods, appear to have occasionally committed organized atrocities and injustices. One only read some of the more inhumane Mizvots to understand the cruel motives of some Jews. This no doubt is why there were sometimes reprisals by other groups.
For real world substance of organized Jewish cruelty… one need look no further than the prominent Jewish Bolshevik monsters in the Soviet Union (communism of course being invented by a modern Jew with Jews being a very prominent element in the violent oppressive movement despite attempts to frame themselves victims to communism).
This is not to say that other groups were always victims to Jews either. Christians were just as bad as ISIS at several points in history. And of course Jews are not all part of an evil cabal. The are many fine Jews. However like every national group there are some some Jews that conform to the stereotype of the evil unprincipled fanatic.
The goal of the fanatic isn’t truth. It isn’t justice for themselves or others. They are unprincipled sophists that think they and their interests are above the rules. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, largely the founders of the modern world, would spot them with great disdain in a heartbeat.
Eventually the chicken comes home to roost as the say. Nature, does function by rules even if some thing it doesn’t. Nature starts to make adjustments for those that thought they were above rules. Gravity cannot be defeated by smooth taking moral narratives. The reckoning eventually, always, comes.
In this article Serwer uses what he claims as DNA evidence to further his arguments in favor of Skopje. In this rebuttal I will attempt to not only expose Serwer’s DNA claims as political propaganda and racism towards Greeks (rather than a scientific assertion) but I will bring into question using Serwer own DNA arguments whether he would qualify as a “real” Jew.
A disclaimer. I am a layman in genetics (like Serwer). I may very well have confirmation biases due to my own stake in the matter. Read with caution. The only thing I can promise is that my arguments are sincere and I will provide sources for my claims (unlike Serwer)
I’d first like to point out Serwer is not a geneticist. Nor does he provide a single source for his bold DNA claims. Coupled with his long track record of one-sided support of Skopje and demonization of Greeks on this issue (including glossing over the former Yugoslavians recent identity quick change into founders of the Hellenistic period and accompanying irredentism)… it is very apparent his real motives aren’t objectivity but to further his political agenda (and biases).
It needs to be made clear that when Serwer brought up DNA he was asserting his personal beliefs but trying to pawn off his pseudo-scientific pet theories as science. (behaving similar to the former Yugoslavians that often claim DNA “proves” Greeks are closely genetically close to Ethiopians)
To address Serwer’s precise DNA claim that modern Greeks are no more genetically related to ancient Greeks than any one else in the region (According to whom other than himself and former Yugoslvians he doesn’t say).
His first miss is that his own claim doesn’t necessarily negate the idea that Greeks are indeed genetically related to ancient Greeks. How analogous to ancient Greek DNA does a modern Greek need to be to be a “real” Greek according to Mr. Serwer? Will Serwer next claim that the modern British Queen Elizabeth.. is not “real” British because many of her ancestors were Germans that couldn’t even speak English? Will Serwer tell Americans they don’t have special rights to George Washington because there is no such thing as a American ethnic group? Will Serwer next tell the Germans they are not “real” Germans because Merkel is of partial Polish ancestry Whom exactly made Serwer the judge, for all humanity, how much DNA someone must have in common with the ancestors they identify with to be “real” anything?
Serwer’s secondary DNA claim is that Vlachs are more related than Greeks (again providing not a shred of evidence) Apparently along with making unscientific assertions Mr. Serwer doesn’t do his homework. If he did he would know the Vlachs of Greece self-identify as Greeks. (despite attempts by antihellenic bigots like Serwer to redefine them as non-Greeks — against their own self-determination)
As a non-geneticist I cannot confirm how close modern Greek DNA is to ancient Greek but every single peer reviewed, multi-marker, DNA study I have read, without exception, suggests a direct biological link to ancient Greeks. (see Genes, Peoples and Languages by well respected Stanford geneticist L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza)
http://www.pnas.org/content/94/15/7719.full
In other words, those like Serwer that attempt to insinuate it’s a myth that Greeks are biologically related to ancient Greeks, are actually the one’s spreading the myth. As implausible as it may sound given the current condition of Greece, modern Greeks are indeed genetically related to ancient Greeks (or at least according to virtual consensus in the current scientific literature).
What is not clear is to what extent modern Greeks are genetically related to ancient Greeks. Part of the difficulty appears to be defining what constitutes the base value of a “real” anything. In Greece’s case it has assimilated throughout its entire history. This is known as Hellenization and treated as something conspiratorial by Skope as their apologist. However Greece is not alone in assimilation. There is ongoing debate in geneticist circles whether using DNA to define “real” ethnic groups is science or simply crackpot extreme nationalists trying to portray it as science. There is clearly politicization of DNA when it comes to issues like this
Perhaps the most well publicized example of this is the dispute between Israel and the state of Palestine. Some Palestinians argue they are more genetically related to the original Israelites than modern Jews (the majority of whom moved to the region of Israel in the 20th century). Alternatively, some Jewish nationalists claim to be pure racial descendants of ancient Israelites from thousands of years ago.
In the case of Greece, some Greek nationalists claim racial purity. Nationalists from the former Yugoslavia (and the foreign nationalists that supported them) attempt to insinuate there is no genetic link for Greeks to ancient Greeks whatsoever… while simultaneously recentlyclaiming the former Yugoslavians are now the “real” descendants of ancient Macedonians.
In essence Skopje and their supporters, ignore the geography of the Greek homeland, the Greek language that has been spoken in unbroken chain since antiquity (unlike Hebrew that was received by modem Jews in the 18th century), and the Greek culture Greeks participate in (related to ancient Greeks in more than just name) and distill the current issue to….”Greeks are not “real” Greeks because they are not racially pure enough to be “real” Greeks.”
In other words, Serwer’s DNA relationship argument towards Greeks is nearly identical to the blood arguments that Nazis used against Jews during the war. The Nazis claimed themselves part of a pure Aryan race whereas they claimed the Jews were just mongols. the irony that Serwer has missed… using Serwer’s fascist-like own DNA impurity arguments towards Greeks… then Serwer himself is validing the Nazi argument.
Despite the remarkable achievements of Ashkenazi Jews in the last century (which would support a common origin theory for this subset of Jews) there is steadily growing body of evidence that modern Jews are not a single ethnic group but mixed group that just shared a common national identity (what many anthropologists today call an “imagined community”).
In my opinion, this should be obvious to all given the profound differences of appearance of Jews from different regions (some look European, others Slavic, other Turkic, some even black but the latter less accepted as “real” Jews by some Jews). I personally believe that the only reason this isn’t widely regarded as an indisputable fact is purely due to political lobbying by extreme Zionists seeking to confirm their identity and historical narrative.
Unfortunately, the growing number of accredited scientists and historians that believe this multi-ethnic origin of modern Jews are usually immediately smeared as either antisemitic or crackpots. Albeit some antisemites do exploit their research, it does not dismiss the strong likelihood their conclusions are sound… that modern Jews are not a racially pure group as many Jewish nationalist extremists claim.
In a paper submitted to Genome Biology and Evolution by Dr Eran Elhaik, a Jewish geneticist at the John Hopkins School of Public Health, Elhaik argues that the Jewish genome is a mosaic of Caucasus, European, and Semitic ancestries. Although some geneticists have chosen to heavily criticize his work (mostly notably some prominent Jewish geneticists), Elhaik has stood by his work and argued their attacks are political motivated not scientific.
http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/5/1/75.full
Elhaik paper suggests that DNA evidence provides a direct biological link between modern Ashkenazi Jews to a middle Turkic people named Khazars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
His claim doesn’t exist in a vaccum It fits perfectly with Israeli historian Shlomo Sands recent book “The “Invention of the Jewish People”. In his book Sands argues (similar to Arthur Koestler’s prior work the 13th tribe) that based on the historical record that Ashkenazi are either fully or partially descended from Khazar converts to Judaism (and a middle age event documented in the Khazar Correspondence and other sources)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_Correspondence
If all of this is true, (which it might not be only further research can tell) it is quite plausible, that modern Jews like Daniel Sewer are *less* genetically related to the original Jews than modern Greeks are to ancient Greeks. It is also plausible that Palestinians are just as related to the original Israelites. if not more so, than modern Jews like Serwer’s nomadic and possibly Khazar ancestors.
One wonders then if Mr. Serwer, by his own alleged logic and DNA approach to ethnic identity with Greek, would he be willing to recognize Palestinians as the “real” Jews and himself not a real Jew?
Are you really that egocentric maniac that leaves on his own post reply?! Are you walking with the bucket on your head and being amazed by the sound of your voice when you speak. What a pile of crap 🙂
Your thought process is AMAZING and wort to be registered under totally new code in the International register of health diseases….
To start with the A-B-C-D grocery list, than Victoria Nuland, followed by your understanding of the WWII and your fascination with the Nazis vis-a-vue antisemitism and to end with the DNA of the GEY2HD is, even when I am writing this, bringing smile on my face.
Looking forward to your further writings! But do please keep them longer with more in-depth analysis.
P.S. Could you please make connection between yourself as GEY2HD entity and first strings in the universe. It will be amazing text to read!
Ah. Slander the Greek rather than address any of the points. Typical of Skopje’s apologists. Others can play your game. Are you so full of yourself and such a bigot you can’t believe a Greek can sometime understand an issue better than you?
Twenty years ago Greeks warned the former Yugoslavians would manipulate the name to promote irredentism if they were recognized. Greeks were mocked and demonized by some of the their own alleged NATO allies.That is exactly has happened but unfortunately some that claim to stand for “human rights” lack the integrity to acknowledge Greeks were right after all
Serwer, and Skopje’s apologists, claim to speak about history… yet Greeks can see with their own eyes lack also lack the integrity to even truthfully report events in their own lifetime. It is hardly difficult to find evidence of widespread (and state sponsored) irredentism going on in Skopje. Yet Serwer ridiculously claims there isn’t? What did he think the giant Alexander statue in ancient Paeonia is about? What did he think all the “United Macedonia” references are about? “Human rights”?
No one could possibly be that stupid. No on. He well knows their agenda is to attempt to annex Macedonia Greece. As before they are getting other countries to do their dirty work for them using pity propaganda. This time though rather than the Soviet Union ethnic engineering “Macedonians”..it is some NATO members.
I believe in human rights but I also believe some have learned to manipulate the words to push purely nationalist agendas. I know this because of their unprincipled behavior. Any Jews that behave like Serwer and Neuland would qualify.
Its a stone cold hard fact that some Jews are nationalist extremists. These types manipulate the horrors of the holocaust and slander their opponents as ‘antisemitic” to try to destroy their credibility. One one side they’ll argue for Jewish defined homeland. On the other they’ll flip-flop and support mass illegal immigration into other people’s country and try to try to deconstruct their identities into ethnic nothingness (trying to turn other ethnic group into geographies rather than distinct ethnic groups while they claim themselves a race of Jews (cryonic-fascist aggression but this time coming from some Jews extremists)
The irony here is that is very plausible (and in my opinion as a layman very likely) that Serwer is *less* genetically related to ancient Israelites than Greeks of today are to ancient Greeks.
So how would Server feel if everyone start claiming Palestinians and Jews have equal rights to Jewish history? How would he feel if we all recognized Palestine as “Republic of Macabee” and them as ethnic Macabees? How about if others argued since DNA shows modern Jews aren’t racially pure descendants of ancient Israelite’s they aren’t an iota any more “real” Jews than local Arabs? How would he feel if others acted they didn’t notice irredentism by ethnic Macabees towards Israel?
Even putting aside alleged blood relationship… what of history? What of the cultural and linguistic choices we make?
Wouldn’t Serwer think such absurd unprincipled behavior by non-Jews towards Jews wasn’t about ethics but really about prejudices towards Jews? And Greeks are different how?
This is why I believe that if Skopje apologists keep supporting them, keep evading, Greece must shift its foreign policy to also include hostility towards nations that lobby for Skopje. They are effectively morality complicit in subtle attempt to ethnic cleanse Greeks. Greece needs to begin a long term effort to tit-for-tat dismantle their identities using the exact same arguments they do towards Greeks.
And if Greeks start dying over this issue yet again, Greece must also consider the targeted use of force against both key Skopjians and key Skopje supporters in other nations. Greece does not have the military capacity to win a war against large nations but it does have the capacity to quietly take out any individuals threatening Greece within other nations (exactly like the CIA, Mossad and others do rather than always go to war)
It is not the Greek state encouraging irredentism while mountains of bigots evade. It is Skopje and their apologists that are doing that. Greece doesn’t have the moral high ground with debt but it does with the Macedonia issue. Greeks have a right to self-defense from this unprovoked act of aggression by both the former Yugoslavians and those that have effectively green light their behavior by continuing to lobby for them.
As for you, I look forward to you actually addressing points by Greeks rather than resorting to slandering them to hide your prejudices towards Greeks.
Victoria Nuland is an intellectual fraud and extreme nationalist with zero ethics. She’s even married to a neo-con that’s constantly advocating wars. (including for non-existent WMDs in Iraq)
Nuland works to hide her pure Jewish nationalist agenda by trying to disingenuously portray herself as an American patriot and peppering her prepared speeches with words like “democracy”, “minority” and “human rights’.
Meanwhile where is Nuland when it comes time to demand full and equal rights for Palestinians in Israel? Where is Nuland to be found when it comes time to denouncing the slow pogrom of native Palestinians currently going on Israel? Focusing US attention at attacking other countries for “human rights”!
Imagine if Nuland wasn’t Jewish and was caught on tape saying “F-CK Israel”. You very well know she would have been instantly fired. The very fact she said “f-ck the EU” (which isn’t the same thing as cricizing some element within EU) is still working in the US government spits on everyone of European descent.
How’s this for a short post Milan,
Anyone that believes that Victoria Nuland is “human rights” and “democracy” activist isn’t particularly bright.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-victoria-nuland-phonecall-leaked-video