The name problem is Greece’s, not Macedonia’s
Regular readers of peacefare.net will have noticed the inordinate number of comments attached to some of my posts on Macedonia (see here and here for examples. Many of the comments are presumptuous (they assume I have opinions I have not expressed) and offensive, in particular anti-Jewish. I will seek to clarify in this post a small number of the many silly issues my critics raise.
First on the personal side. I am a Jew not only because my parents, grandparents and great grandparents were Jews (I really have no idea about their predecessors), but because I choose to associate myself with that family tradition. My wife is no less Jewish because she was brought up a Christian. In fact, she is a bit more devout than I am, as many converts are.
I support a Palestinian state and full respect for the human rights of Palestinians and other non-Jews in Israel. I make no claims to territory based on Bible stories, many of which may not be literally true. The United Nations General Assembly decided the partition of Palestine in 1948 and the ensuing war confirmed it. I see no viable alternative. Nor do most Palestinians and Israelis, including Israelis who are Arab.
Genes are little relevant to my religion and personal sense of identity, though if anyone is curious some of mine do show origins in the Middle East. On the genetic origins of people in the Balkans, see this. Here is the short version: none show more relationship to the Ancients than others, except perhaps for the Vlachs.
Why do I publish the claptrap of ideologues who claim descent from ancient populations whose language, culture and gene pool have long since mixed with those of many others? Because it is so transparently claptrap. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, though I admit it doesn’t seem to have occurred to the authors of the offensive comments posted on peacefare.net that everything they write confirms one of my main points: that the “name” issue comes from Greek insecurity about Greek identity. Which means “the name” is not really Macedonia’s problem but Greece’s.
Macedonia has other problems. It needs to sort them out quickly and justly if it wants its friends to continue speaking up for it without embarrassment.
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10 thoughts on “The name problem is Greece’s, not Macedonia’s”
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No its not Greece’s problem at all with the vetoes that await FYROM in the EU and Nato it clearly is not.I Greeks are not connected to the ancient Macedonians as you claim why then would the Slavic neighbors in the North Be?All Greece is asking for is a geographic pre qualifier ie north, upper for all uses.if THE SLAVIC NEIGHBORS IN THE NORTH who are not associated with the Macedonians as your logic goes are willing to risk their state for a word THEN IT DEFINITELY IS THEIR PROBLEM.
Definitely! Regarding the Vlachs – authors point out that “We have paid special attention to the Aromuns, and sought to test genetically various hypotheses on their origins.” so the research cannot be extended to other ethnicities…
Why don’t the Greeks just add their own qualifier to the Greek province of Macedonia (e.g. “South Macedonia”, “Hellenic Macedonia”, etc.), if this is so important to them??
It’s funny how the Greeks claim the name “Macedonia” as their own, but don’t profess to speaking any corresponding “Macedonian” language, except for Greek.
They also do not speak any Athenian, Attic, Spartan nor Epirot, James. How about you, do you speak any British?
Even the majority of the Welsh do not speak Welsh nor Scots Scottish…fraudsters!
I wonder how the state of Israel would feel if all of the sudden a neighboring country wants to be renamed something as let’s say “real Israel”?
After looking at Skoplje turning into a ancient-Macedonian kitsch style city and its government claiming that the local slavic population are direct descendant of Alexander the Great, no wonder that people around the world being cognizant with the history of the Balkans ponder whether this newly born country is a potential melting pot of another nationalistic calamity.
Majority Haemus-Natives, at one time or another, Hellenized willingly and voluntarily. FYRoM’s pre-Slavic ancestors…the Paeonians, adopted Hellenic culture for culture of choice, becoming a fraternal brother-peoples to Greeks.
Lest we forget – Paeonians Hellenized…they stayed that way up to (Byzantine) Greco-Roman times. Then, Slavicization got the better of them – stayed Slavic ever since.
Lest we forget – FYRoM’s Slavic identity shone through 500 years of Ottoman rule.
Macedonians on the other hand stayed Hellenic – from since the days of King Karanus (808-778 BC).
Slavic-speaking Macedonians – Show respect to the Greek-speaking Macedonians for keeping as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of the Haemus-Hellenic ancestors.
I agree with this comment. That particular area lived and breathed in the shadow of ancient Greece for centuries and is still struggling to break free. Others have managed.
The problem is Greece staunchly defends and protects the Hellenic Republic’s National history and heritage…and should be commended for doing so. Protecting the western worlds cultural-historical narrative should be priority now western civilization is under threat.
Nobody of worth in the West, from politics, diplomacy, or academia, sees FYRoM like ‘Macedon’ or ex-Yugoslavians like Macedonians. They see FYRoM for what it really is…a newly established Balkan statelet with all the familiar severance(s), political and historical intrigue(s) associated with a volatile unstable region.
FYRoM’s attempts at Nation building…bringing together a (mosaic) population-dynamic comprising several ethnic-groupings divided by (i) ethnicity, (ii) language, (iii) religion, (iv) histories, (v) heritages, and (vi) loyalties, – cannot succeed easily when nothing ‘common’ exists between them. Pseudo-historical intimidation cannot be the basis on which to build the foundations of state.
So, ‘Macedonia’ cannot be the name on which Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Roma etc, stake their primordial historical ethno-generic origin(s). There is nothing common between these disparate people-groups.
The ‘Central Balkan Republic’ might be a suitable name on which to build a Nation comprising the above mosaic. Bringing back, resurrecting the latin-Roman name, ‘Macedonia-Secunda’ might also do the job.
Seriously, the first building-block in Nation-building is commonality. The search for commonalities can be found during the Ottoman era, or further back still, to Imperial Byzantium, when FYRoM was at the frontier(s) of the Greek-speaking world, the Eastern-Roman Empire. Common themes and synergies can be found to bound the peoples of FYRoM to one common history, and to one common heritage. Failing that…the West gave FYRoM ample opportunity to integrate, to enter the Western-worlds most prestigious economic and security structures of the EU, and NATO. The name issue is holding FYRoM back from fulfilling stated ambition(s) and aspiration(s) to join the Euro-Atlantic economic and security area.
I stopped checking this website a long time ago, as I thought that the posts were of low quality. I only checked today after a long time because I thought there would be something very entertaining here again and I have not been disappointed. Honestly, I don’t know why anyone in their right mind would get into a dialogue with the people that leave the uneducated and illiterate comments here…unless they were a bit like that themselves… And so…we are being referred to some dodgy genetic research of the population of the Balkans that reaches the conclusion that Greeks are not related to the ancient population of the land even though no Greek has actually been tested for it but some individuals from Thrace. Dear Mr Serwer…, what is the matter with you? I was right, you know nothing about the area and you are not suitable to comment on anything. The ancient Thracians were considered a separate people in antiquity. Not Greek. They didn’t speak Greek and they had a different culture. And besides, it is well known that the population of Thrace has changed several times over the centuries. The area was invaded by Celts, Goths, Slavs, Turks etc. It has been a melting pot for ever. It was populated before the Indo-Europeans settled it as well. If you would like to read some proper and credible genetic research, if you are indeed interested in proper facts, rather than serving political goals, you need to read eupedia, which is the genetic mapping of Europe by the EU and there is absolutely nothing political about it.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
Just bear in mind that a lot of this is based on assumption, it is a work in progress and actually the majority of the population of Europe is of the same Indo-european descent. The slight genetic differences are due to living separately for centuries on end and being exposed to different climatic conditions, diet and epidemics, so they could also mean differences in culture and language. Although the crucial factor for this is the dominant “genetic”/cultural group in each country. what this means is that although people throughout the Balkans may be similar genetically, it is the slight balances between different countries that give them the cultural identity that they have. So, for example, the highest in proportion genetic marker in the FYROM is the South Slavic. even though it may be relatively low it still is the highest from all the rest and would account for the country’s culture. In addition, the overall picture is closest to that of Bulgaria and would show the population’s descent and closest cultural affinities. regardless, of the populations that may have contributed to the Bulgarian one and that may have been absorbed without a trace through the centuries, the overall general genetic make-up of Bulgaria is closest to that of FYROM.
I found particularly funny this: “the “name” issue comes from Greek insecurity about Greek identity”. really? when you say insecurity do you mean to the extent that one starts denying their historical identity and facts of history and archaeology and engages in online brain-washing of the masses trying to construct a fake identity and even tries to put it on their flag and takes on someone else’s name? Nice try, mr Serwer. I will definitely be back to read some more. Never seen entertainment like this before. Thank you!